Winter, Music, And The Art Of Moving On

A winter check‑in turns into a wide‑open conversation about music, identity, and how bands survive change. We start with the cold, the storms, and that mental shift from fighting discomfort to accepting it—then plug into joy: Nuno Betancourt’s “Turkey Jam,” a hometown cover night where a world‑class guitarist channels his heroes and reminds us why songs are the real currency. The clips are loose, loud, and full of respect; it’s the kind of play that makes musicians better and fans fall in love again.

From there we face harder truths. We revisit Scott Weiland with more empathy than we had when we were younger, and we give Stone Temple Pilots the range they’ve always earned—from Core’s grind to Purple’s psychedelia and the haunted elegance of Atlanta. We talk about how media frames “tortured artists,” why some 90s bands got a critical pass while others didn’t, and how growing up changes the way we listen.

Then the big question: should bands carry on when the voice changes? We look at Alice In Chains with William DuVall, STP with Jeff Gutt, and Linkin Park’s return with a singer who doesn’t imitate Chester. The throughline is craft, authorship, and intention. If the songwriting spine remains, if the new voice reframes rather than copies, a band can evolve without erasing its past. We close with Van Halen—Roth’s spark, Hagar’s polish—and drop the team‑sports mindset. You don’t have to crown a winner. You only have to ask: does this song move you today?

If this conversation hits a nerve, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review. Got a guest idea or a topic you want us to tackle next? Reach out—we’d love to hear from you.

Learn more about The Silver Echo at thesilverecho.com

Chapters

• 0:17 Cold Weather And Holiday Catch‑Up
• 5:20 Storms, Safety, And Family Anxiety
• 11:42 Nuno Betancourt’s “Turkey Jam” Deep Dive
• 20:55 The Value Of Covers And Playing Songs
• 28:31 Scott Weiland, Talent, And Empathy
• 39:10 Media Narratives And 90s Band Perception
• 47:09 Can Bands Go On With New Singers?
• 56:45 Van Halen: Roth vs. Hagar Without The Hate
• 1:08:20 Velvet Revolver, Audioslave, And Supergroups
• 1:17:30 Fans, Expectations, And Letting Art Evolve
• 1:34:45 Wrap‑Up And Listener Invitations

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:17

What's up, dude? What is up? Happy whatever hell day it is today. Um I don't I don't know. I know it's in the holidays uh or in the push of holidays. How's that going?

SPEAKER_00: 0:34

Um it's going fine. I mean the weather is finally really cold.

SPEAKER_02: 0:40

Frightful.

SPEAKER_00: 0:42

Yeah, I mean it's not snowing or anything yet. You know, we're not into like the real bad weather. Um why is my camera so dark? Um second here. All good. We got a little bit the second we hit record, it just went super dark compared to you. Weird. But yeah, it's uh yeah, we'll we'll have some snow probably before too long. Um but uh yeah, just been really cold. Like in the twenties, you know. Oh god. Parts of the country and the world probably think of that as a nice springtime uh sort of situation, but uh I'm still very much a California kid. And uh uh yeah, 20 degrees is cold to me.

SPEAKER_02: 1:32

Well, I mean you do get a full run of all your hoodie collection, because between you and your wife, I'm sure you you have a pretty significant collection of hoodies, I would say.

SPEAKER_00: 1:49

Oh, way more than that. Way more than that, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I don't have as many as you might think, but Michaela has a lot of hoodies. But I I was of the same mentality as you. I thought, okay, cool. Like when the weather gets cold, it's hoodie season. It's it's too cold to wear hoodies here. Like they basically don't get any use. We keep the we keep the apartment warm enough that like yeah, I mean, you you can wear a hoodie inside if you want. I end up always getting hot usually if I'm wearing one. But then to go outside, it's way too cold to wear a hoodie. You need like a proper jacket, and you know, as we get further into the season, I'll need gloves too, because it gets to the point where just taking my dog out at night, like my hands will be very cold by the time I get in. So it's nice to have a a pair of gloves to keep them warm.

SPEAKER_02: 2:47

D this might be a different podcast for us, um, but does your wife find it necessary to put her dead cold hands on you when she's been outside just to she'll just immediately shove them into your your stomach or your back to warm up her hands. Um maybe you enjoy that. I have found that over the course of my twenty-something years with Lisa that her hands are so freaking cold that she'll go outside to have done like the other day, she went out to bring the trash cans back in. And just it was, you know, it's like 40 here. Yeah. But still coming in. I'm all got the blanket on, watching TV, sitting on the couch, and she comes in and immediately goes, you know, just to my bare chest, and I'm like, it's like having ice cubes on me. I'm like, what are you doing? She's like, I need the warmth. I gotta have the warmth right now. I'm like, there's a blanket here, and there's other places where you could find out.

SPEAKER_00: 3:52

There's other ways to, yeah. Yeah, you got a dog. That's what the dog's for.

SPEAKER_02: 3:57

Yeah, it's not like the Titanic scene, you know, where we're all trying to keep each other warm. Yeah. Real life is like, dang, girl, get stop. Just be warm yourself up. Trying to figure this out. I can't.

SPEAKER_00: 4:10

Yeah, she does not do that to me. Um I do that to her, but not because I'm trying to get warmed up. I I tolerate the cold pretty well. Yeah. Like, it's a a lot of things in life I've realized are a state of mind. And so if you can just acknowledge the fact that you are cold, but not fight it. Right. It's like people who don't tolerate the cold well, I feel like all they're doing is focusing on it's like panic mode, like I have to get out of the cold. It's like just be cold for a minute. And yeah, I mean, I'm there's limits to everything, right? I'm not saying you could be in Siberia and just think warm thoughts. Uh although it seems like maybe some people can. But uh, but yeah, it's like, look, I'm gonna take the dog out, it's gonna be five minutes. Yeah, it's fine. You're gonna be cold. You'll be okay. Just breathe, breathe, and relax, and when you get back inside, it'll be warm and you'll warm up. And it might take you 10-15 minutes to, you know, thaw out, but you'll be alright. Um well at least you have it here enough.

SPEAKER_02: 5:30

You know, obviously you see all the weather and all the crazy blizzards and you know, people getting in accidents and you know, all that kind of stuff um that come around the holidays, especially having to drive and that stuff. I don't miss it. That's the one thing about East Coast that I don't um miss at all. It um I like seeing it in a picture. Snow's pretty, you know, and like we've both been to Tahoe, so I know you know there's that whole winter wonderland kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01: 6:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 6:03

But um living in it and having to deal with it and the black ice and the rust on your car and all that BS. Nope. I'm good. Yeah, I don't need it. Give me just keep me warm, nice sun uh most of the year, I'll be alright. We do have the occasional earthquakes, of course. We've been getting a lot of those more recently, though. They've been popping up quite a bit. So every place has got its thing, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 6:31

Yeah, there there's no perfect situation, you know. Not no California is about as close as it gets to a perfect weather situation, but as you mentioned, you still have earthquakes and stuff like that. Yeah, you still gonna have stuff to contend with. Having been here a little more than a year now, I don't really have an issue with the weather. Like, yeah, it storms a lot compared to California, but I sort of already feel like I have gotten used to that. Yeah. Um and it snows, but it's like we're not far enough north to get crazy snow. So it's gonna snow like two or three times, most likely. So it's a nut that it's kind of fun. Right. Like for a couple of days you avoid driving if you can. Right. And otherwise it's just cold, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 7:27

And a little little sled, sled, you know, find a little hill somewhere, slide on the side.

SPEAKER_00: 7:31

Kids are doing that like outside my studio window here. There's a decent little hill, especially if you're a kid. And you know, they'll they were out there last year with their toboggans and whatever kind of stuff. And to me, that's fun. Like it it mixes it up enough, but I'm not dealing with like having to shovel driveways and you know, like all that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's not like being in the you know, uh, New England area or yeah, Buffalo. It's it's nothing like that. Chicago. Yeah. So we get a little bit of it, and then we're not far enough east to where we don't have to deal with hurricanes. You know, we're not like coastal. Um, so yeah, I mean, thunderstorms, that's about the worst that it is, and it rains a lot more. But uh yeah, so it's pretty tolerable in this area for the most part, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 8:25

Given given all the stuff that's um you know, I mean, given all the good and everything else, it just comes you, it's just what you expect. Like, okay, cool. Now I know what to contend with, and that is, and then you just acclimate to it and get used to it.

SPEAKER_00: 8:40

Yeah, around this time last year, there were a couple storms that freaked me out because I was like normally I wouldn't think twice about it. You know, a storm is a storm, like whatever. But they were they were pretty brutal storms and like you know, tornado warnings and all that. It was like every night it was going off like an amber alert, like every hour. So I'm just taking inventory because I'm like, we're in the middle of this storm, and I'm looking outside and I'm going, okay, this is bad.

SPEAKER_02: 9:14

Yeah, it looks like black sky and oh yeah, they get really well yeah, and the wind is crazy high. Crazy, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 9:22

And uh I'm going, I'm brand new to this area. Like, if we had to evacuate and get out of here, I don't even know where to go. So then I started having all those feelings of like, yeah, I brought my family out here, I'm responsible for them. And so the like stress of that, if I was by myself, I would have just been like whatever, you know. But you're losing power and you're huddled up and the wind is whipping. I'm going, man, what did I do? I don't I don't know where I'm gonna where I'm gonna go if we even needed to shelter somewhere. Like what do we do? We had an issue. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we don't know anybody out here, so uh I mean we do now, but um but still but you know, at that point it's like, well, I mean, I don't I don't know what we're gonna do if we run into trouble.

SPEAKER_02: 10:12

Yeah. Those are all the like the um growing up in Florida, hurricane parties were always like, I mean, when I was older, those are always the fun thing, you know. It's like, oh, we're gonna have a hurricane coming through. So everybody just, you know, meets up at a house and it's basically just an excuse to drink and eat, you know, and have fun and be silly.

SPEAKER_01: 10:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 10:36

Um cut loose. Getting caught, yeah, until you know, they're fun until they aren't. Um and getting caught in one of those a little bit, um they can be pretty terrifying, you know?

unknown: 10:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 10:49

You're like, oh crap, the tornado tore off the half a little corner of the house that I was in for one of those hurricane parties. And then it it gets real serious real quick, and you're like, ooh. Everyone gets sobered up real fast. We dodged a bullet. Yeah. Walking into this bedroom and seeing a hole in the bedroom going out to the yard, and everything on that corner of the house that was just destroyed. You're like, oh damn.

SPEAKER_00: 11:17

And you just hear someone. Have you guys seen Jim? Oh God, where's Jim? Tug, Tug, Tug, Tug. Exactly. That reference probably will go over people's heads, but uh yeah, that's a little McGruber for you. Yeah. Tug. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02: 11:39

I um well, holidays, I mean, Thanksgiving was good. Um it kind of brought me into something I told you. There's a couple things I was, you know, looking around over the holidays, and um we can kind of kick into a little bit of that. Like um Nuno Betancourt, um who I've always admired quite a bit, and I know you have too to some degree. Um my great friend Greg, who is a guitar guitarist, passed away a few years ago. Um, he and I were both kind of grew up on Extreme and were really big fans of theirs, right? So we had a good connection with them. And then of course, they kind of get back together. He took a hiatus from them for a while because he was just exhausted from doing it. And he joined back up, uh, it's I don't know what that last record they did two or three years ago.

SPEAKER_01: 12:37

Yeah, a couple of years. Or maybe not even that long.

SPEAKER_02: 12:39

Yeah, maybe two years, three years ago. And it he kind of got uh Rick Biotto brought him up uh a bit because he had a solo on that record that was just tearing everyone's heads off. All these guitar players are just so blown away. And Nuno is a virtuosa guitar player, uh, probably like like Eddie, and you know, he gets in he he's in the conversation, let's just put it that way. Um and of course he did the tribute, he was asked to play at the tribute shows for Ozzy, the last the back to the beginning shows, and so he's gotten a lot of he's shown up a lot more recently here. Anyway, I had no idea, but apparently in Hudson, Massachusetts, where he's basically his home, he grew up in uh or was born in Portugal, but lived there in Hudson for a long time uh in his hometown, I guess, every year. I thought he was from Brazil for some reason. Portuguese, uh, I believe I could have that screwed up. I tried to do a little bit of research today, so it's coming with some intellect. But I could be wrong, but I think I was subject to Brazil.

SPEAKER_00: 13:49

Yeah. Weird.

SPEAKER_02: 13:50

Um anywho, like we always say, look it up. We don't know. We can use a Google machine.

SPEAKER_00: 13:56

Um please don't take our word for anything.

SPEAKER_02: 14:00

God knows. Anywho. Uh so he does um and his family apparently is pretty musical as well. So he has got a lot of uh nieces, nephews, brothers, sisters, so forth that kind of put together their own little bet and court band, and they have special guests, of course, you know, people that have played in bands that he knows and so forth that kind of come and they'd call it a turkey jam. And they do it at this uh Portuguese uh center there in Hudson, Massachusetts, um, and have done it, I guess, for a couple of years now. And he comes out and I found it just by accident because I'm always looking at YouTube and looking at for stuff that's coming out or new videos or whatever. And I saw some clips of this, and I'm like, God, this guy can play the phone book. I mean, he covered so many different just cool songs that you would some you might anticipate them doing. Like he covered Panama, which was great.

SPEAKER_01: 15:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 15:05

Um I'm more focused on him. Of course, he's got different people singing, and the comments people were like, Well, I don't know if he sounded like Dave. I'm like, who cares? They're just having fun. I don't, you know, yeah, it's almost like a karaoke jam with a live band. Like he just have people different people coming up and singing, but they did uh immigrant song. And one of my favorite ones, and I we talked about this I think before, but like one of my favorite journey songs uh off Escape Record was Stone in Love. Yeah, one of the craziest cool guitar solos that Neil Neil Sean played on that record. And so, what always impresses me is like when I see famous musicians or musicians that I love, and I see them doing covers of other artists that we probably both mutually like, and they just have such an adoration for it and a respect for it that they learn it and it's pretty note for note. And Nuno is definitely a student in that way to me. He just came with it, and I'm like, I'm listening to that him shred that solo on Stone in Love, and I was like, God, dang, this guy is so good. And having such a great time, you know, just up there, and I'm sure it doesn't seem like this little it almost looks like a banquet hall. It doesn't seem like it's probably that big. I'm assuming maybe there's a couple hundred people there at most. Um, but you know, cell phone footage of the the event. They did it, I guess it was so popular and it sold out so quick that they did two nights. So there's a host of songs and stuff that they did. But I mean, they covered the like they're doing um somebody that I used to know that uh song that came out a few years ago, Gautier. Yeah, they covered that, they covered um Keep on Running, I think, or the Rio Speedwagon song. Like it's just all over. Like, just do it. He did um Wonderwall, I think he covered that. So yeah, if you're imagining this guy who could pretty much play anything, he's just like, Yeah, let's do that. Let's have this song. They did Man in the Box with the dude from um God Smack, funny enough.

SPEAKER_00: 17:19

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02: 17:19

Uh yeah, which I thought was kind of funny. The I I don't know if he was the drummer or is the drummer in God Smack, but he's also a great singer. I don't follow that band, so I'm not too familiar. Yeah, but if y'all look it up, you can see who it was. I didn't know if you got I sent you a couple of those videos, but I don't know if you had a chance to watch any of them, but it just um I'm just a big fan of players, I think, and being able and we all do this a lot. We watch people like that um doing songs, and I've always felt like that. I've always been attracted to bands that will cover other artists, not necessarily for commercial game, but they're like you'll see these this footage of people in the studio and they're just messing around. They're like, oh, let's play this, you know, this song that we love. And they're just having a good time, and you can see sort of the same spark. It's like if you and I learn to cover the fun that we get of being able to take something down, the accomplishment of it, but also the kind of living in the shoes of that band or that artist for a moment in time just to try and pull off what they did, you know. Um there's a fun there's a just kind of playfulness about it and a funness about it. And I always say you you get better as a musician by learning to play covers. There's that's not not a I mean, your whole town there in Nashville is a lot of people doing that very thing every single day of the week, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 18:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 18:54

Um everywhere you go. And they and they build their skill by doing that. And you know, of course they do the originals and all that kind of stuff too. But anyway, I just I always just find it fun. You just see kind of a twinkle in their eye when they're getting to play songs from artists that I'm sure they grew up and admired, and being able to kind of accomplish it and pull it off is a is a cool thing. So I had a good time kind of watching some of those videos, and um I knew I was like, I want to talk to you about that and see what your familiarity was with them. Um I just realized too that he just opened, I guess he just has his own guitars now. The Washburn guitar that he used to sort of he had a specialty guitar, I think, that came out in his heyday. I think it was made in in partnership with Wa uh Washburn, who's no longer in existence. They went they went out of business, I think. Yeah. I'm not screwing that up. I don't know. You don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 19:48

Yeah, I haven't followed Washburn in a while. Uh I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, they were not a predominant brand, even kind of in their heyday.

SPEAKER_02: 19:58

Yeah, a bit a bit neat. I think, but just a company. Yeah, seemed to have a love for him, and they built this really great guitar that I um that he played on for a long time. But now apparently I think he has his own guitars now, or he's doing his own guitar thing uh called Nuno Guitars. And I'm a s I don't know if he is building them. Like um I learned several months back that George Lynch had actually is building his own guitars in his like a workshop that he has at his home now. So you can literally go and buy a George Lynch guitar made by George himself, which I is is also obviously pretty cool knowing how much I love that guy. Um so I didn't know anyway. Um what is your do you know a lot about him? Did you ever listen to Extreme or do you just you just kind of heard about him in the in the guitar legends, if you will?

SPEAKER_00: 20:56

Uh yeah, more the latter. I I was never really an extreme fan. Um I don't dislike them. Uh I I tend like I'll hear about a guitar player and I'll check out a band that a guitar player is in, and I'll almost always appreciate that player. Like Nuno is an amazing player. Um but then what keeps me hooked is the singer usually. And um I I don't have an an issue with Extreme Singer, so I'm I'm not trying to throw shade, but yeah, they also never really did much for me in that way either. So I I'm I'm kind of like a casual listener in that respect. I I've always been that way where like it doesn't matter how cool the music is, if the singer doesn't totally scratch an itch for me, I don't I don't hang around very long. And unfortunately that that was kind of extreme for me. Um brilliant players clearly have written some amazing songs too. Yeah. And it was cool checking out their new record because they really just like burst back onto the scene in a big way. I know a lot of people were excited about that, so um, so that was really cool to see and and the playing and all that. Um But yeah, I mean that that's kind of where it ended for me. But I I like hearing you talk about his whole um what'd they call it, turkey jam? Yeah, turkey jam, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean that that's a cool it's a really cool idea because um I I don't know. I I find myself falling into this, and certainly historically I have, where um as a musician, it's easy to get kind of caught up in spending your time chasing things that aren't songs. You know, you kind of uh miss the force for the trees in like working on a scale or noodling or just playing a little riff of a thing that you think is cool that's like a microscopic part of the whole, right? Yeah, yeah. And remembering that the reason why we all enjoy music is the songs. You know, and so if you like, you know, I look at myself and go, man, do I how many songs do I know front to back? Uh oh man, okay, well that's that's a good challenge. You know, you mentioned Nashville. This is a town that is all about songs and is one of the few places um that still will record songs front to back with the whole band. Yep. Um whereas most places nowadays everything is, you know, done a piece at a time, and people are oftentimes not even in the same room. Um, you'll have a drummer in LA and then a guitar player from wherever, you know, Dropbox in their stuff, and a singer from somewhere else. And there's nothing wrong with any of that, but there is something special about people performing a song, you know. And I think it is a lot of fun when it's uh when it's some of your hero songs and you get to perform that music. Um, you know, your day job, so to speak, in his case, extreme, you know, they're not gonna go out and play Stone in Love every night or Immigrant Song or some of these other tunes that you mentioned. So it's gotta be really fun to be able to just like cut loose and play a bunch of songs that you love that you know the audience is gonna love because everyone loves those songs. They're great songs. Yeah. And uh and he's got the chops to do it all, so it's that's gotta be a really fun experience just to be like, yeah, we're just gonna go have fun, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 25:00

Yeah. There was um when I lived in Los Angeles and we were we would frequent what was left of the sort of sunset scene at that time. Again, remember, this is probably early early 2000, like 2002, 2003-ish. There was a a cool station that was, I think it was indie 103.1 or something like that. Anyway, um, they had a lot of the and this is gonna transition into another thing, but they had a thing on there called Camp Freddy Radio that I believe I believe Dave Navarro was sort of the host of that show, and he would have his buddies like Slash, Matt Sorum, Scott Wyland, different folks that he knew uh in and around town, if you will, that would show up on the show, but then they would also kind of take it out and they would play um the Roxy, I think it was, um, that's right next to Rainbow there. And again, I don't know if any if that club's still there, if it's changed, but whatever. Point is um usually once or twice a month they would do a whole jam. And it was open to the public so people could buy tickets and come down, and I think they donated the money. I don't remember what if it was for a cause or something like that. I think it was, but they would just get random people would just show up that often were in other bands. Like you'd have the bass player from the Goo-Goo dolls, and it'd be Slash, and you'd have Dave there, or you'd have Matt typically playing drums, but you'd have other people showing up to sing, like Scott would sing, or you'd have uh Dave would sometimes sing, or you know, Perry would show up. Like all these different people would just kind of go, but they weren't doing their own tunes. They were covering other people. Like you'd hear them get together and like, hey, do you know, shout it out loud? They're like, uh, sure. Let's, you know, so and they'd end up doing like a kiss song, or they would, you know, Aerosmith or something, you know, they're idols, right? So it's kind of uh an inception in a way, like I'm going to see these folks because I have an adoration for them. They're playing songs from their heroes and doing covers, and it's just a good time. It's really fun. I really enjoyed that kind of thing, and I've always I always love I don't know what it is about that, but it's like just again being able to see different uh artists, and it doesn't even matter if I'm really a big fan. I actually caught a clip the other day of Train covering Moving Out, and I've you know me, I'm a massive Billy Joel fan and grew up learning piano with Billy's music. So them covering Anthony's song, moving out, just as a warm-up before they go and play. That was just like a song that they wanted to do in the room together. You're seeing the whole band just in a little rehearsal space behind stage somewhere, and they're playing that song, and he did a great job. I'm not a massive fan of train, but I'm like, oh, that was kind of cool to see them do that. Uh Radiohead, long time ago, covers a Joy Division song, and seeing them be able to play that song, and it was in their practice space, some you know, they just happen to record it, and it ends up online. And you see Tom York playing and singing the song, and you I don't know how to describe this for anyone who listens to this, go and look up that video. But there's just a there's just an expression and a thing in his face where he's channeling his feeling as a teenager, probably listening to Joy Division, and that same sort of feeling. He's he's feeling it now because he's learned it and he's evoking that that childlike feeling of hearing that song probably for the first time. You you catch it in its expressions when you're seeing him, and it's like there's just something really special about that. And watching Nuno the other night uh on some of those videos, you can tell that he's just having fun. It's super loose, nothing's you know, nothing's perfect. It's like a a garage band just basically getting together and having fun and jamming, and those things are very uh precious to me. They, you know, you know, you and I being able to be in a space and write that way is very cool. Like we joked about like Friday night lights in a way, because it was Friday nights, we'd be able to be off work or whatever early into us starting to write together, and we get together at either one of the houses that I lived in and just start working on stuff, and we've covered tunes or or attempted to cover songs from other artists as well along the way.

SPEAKER_01: 29:58

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 29:59

You know? Um, and there is that that sense of a uh joyment of doing that. I I've um I've just really appreciated it, you know. You talked about singers and being a if you're not fully into a singer, sometimes that's it makes it hard to really get bought into the band. Gary Sharon, of course, the singer of Extreme, being that example that you mentioned. But I'm I'm reflecting back because there was another thing I know I brought up to you in the text the other night. Um I guess it was yesterday was ten years since Scott Wyland's passing. And this is one that I think, given our history together, I never really knew where you landed. I felt like when, you know, as people get to know each other as friends and brothers and musical partners, you and I have clearly rubbed off musical talent and taste on one another. I was not gonna be an Avenged Sevenfold fan until you turned me on to them and I understood sort of where they're coming from. And there have been other artists. I think we both kind of our friend probably turned us on to Ryan Adams, and we learned about Ryan through a mutual friend of ours, Greg.

SPEAKER_01: 31:15

Yep.

SPEAKER_02: 31:16

Um maybe fair to say that I I pulled you into the era of Tom Petty and got you kind of there in that space. And I've obviously there's some where you're just like, I'm not doing it. I can't do it. Like I've tried for a better part of a decade to get you to love Pearl Jam as much as I do, and I've accepted the fact that that's just not gonna happen. Um, not in the way that I would anticipate, even though I think you know that they have a a talent and uh and they're great musicians, just not something that that gets you excited or out of bed, right?

SPEAKER_00: 31:49

One of these days it'll probably happen, but as of today, as well. As of today, it is not happening yet. Yeah, Pearl Jam just isn't my my thing.

SPEAKER_02: 31:58

No. But I'll put that in out there because I think there was a place you and I have talked about, Scott, and talked about, and you know I'm again, no surprise, I'm a big love of big lover of Stone Temple Pilots. I was not as much of a fan of uh Velvet Revolver, and I think it was just because I was always so precious about the original band. So when that sort of era of super groups came out, and I felt the same way early on about Audio Slave, it took me a bit to really kind of come around to that because I love SoundGarden and Rage. So the whole thing was kind of weird. Seeing the entire band of Guns N' Roses with uh Scott was just a head trip for me. So yeah, because it wasn't STP and it wasn't Guns N' Roses, and so I'm just like this is really kind of strange. But over the better part of our twelve or thirteen years of knowing one another, I feel like you might have come around a little bit more to Scott and to STP. I'm not gonna speak out of turn, but I feel like there might have been a point early on where you're like, nah, I don't really care for that guy. I don't really think of him much. I don't really consider him to be a good singer necessarily. And maybe, and I could be speaking out of turn, so you're gonna have to correct this if I am. But as we've gone on, I do feel like you've kind of found an appreciation for what he was and what he did and his approach to music in general. But any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00: 33:38

Yeah, definitely. Um I never had an issue with Scott and his voice. I I've always been a fan of his singing. Um now it's funny how you described your relationship to Velvet Revolver, they were more of my entry point to him as a singer. And uh, you know, I mentioned struggling with a band if I don't love the singer. There are a handful of examples of singers that have grown on me over time. So, like, for example, early on I didn't like Axel's singing voice. So hearing GNR with a different singer was actually a huge bonus for me because I got interesting. I got to get into Slash. There's a lot of great songs. Scott's a really good singer. So I loved Velvet Revolver when it came out because it kind of I could get into it more than I could GR initially.

SPEAKER_02: 34:43

That's gonna be the same conversation we're gonna have about Miles Kennedy in just a minute, but let's finish this uh yeah, this thought on this one because I will go there. But yeah, this is interesting, please.

SPEAKER_00: 34:54

Yeah, I mean, but it it's it's like that with there's like I said, there's a handful of bands that I didn't like the singer initially that over time I I got it, you know. Tom Petty's another one. I think we probably have talked about this on the podcast before, but Tom Petty was one. Um who's another one? Um Dave Mustaine. You know, so singers that I understand now and I appreciate what they do, and I totally love the bands, but it took me some time, you know. Um, like in high school, if you asked me to choose between Metallica and Megadeth, I'm going, well, that's easy. It's Metallica all day because they have the better singer. Um I think probably a lot of people are that way. It's like the singer is an uh carries more of a ratio to the rest of the band in terms of like you know. Um yeah, so I didn't get into uh SDP right away. Um my issue with Scott, and this may be where you got this feeling, is I always uh when I was growing up, I really struggled with him as a person. And since my perspective has matured a lot on how I look at him, I have a lot more empathy for his life now than I did when I was a teenager and in my early twenties. Uh I projected a lot of my own desire to succeed and frustration. I looked at him as uh with very little empathy because I thought how dumb do you have to be to not be able to clean up your act when you are living the dream that I would love I would do anything to be in the position that you're in, but you're in that position and you're throwing it all away. You know. This is like during the time where even uh Velvet Revolver was on hiatus or broke up or whatever, and he was really struggling with you know addiction and all this stuff. And hearing stories about him like, you know, uh seizing on an airplane and like different stuff like that, and I'm thinking, man, how could you how could you get in that position? Like I I I would I would do almost anything to be in your position. So it's frustrating watching someone that is doing what you want to do seemingly just not give it the um I don't know, like the respect that it deserves, you know. Right. Right. And of course that's that's a perspective of uh a young man. You know someone who's immature who hasn't who hasn't really seen um what addiction can be like for people and um and what so many times those kind of things are born out of trying to deal with things that you didn't expect you're gonna have to deal with when it comes to the lifestyle that um and I don't mean the partying, I just mean like the expectations and the constant touring and the the pain and the not being able to sleep and like all these different things um that you know you you look at it from the outside and you go, it's glamorous. They get to play music every night, they're on the radio, everyone knows who they are. Uh what else could you want? Well, maybe maybe after you know ten years of good night's rest might be nice, or just a quiet, a quiet meal, you know, without being interrupted by fans who you have to then keep continuing to turn that on and and be a kind and generous person because you you do understand sort of the exchange of it all.

SPEAKER_02: 39:03

But that has to be a lot, you know, for somebody, an artist for sure, who's struggling.

SPEAKER_00: 39:10

Dealing with yeah, dealing with your own mind, you know. I think um I think that's a big part of it too. And I didn't really understand that when I was younger, you know, because you kind of think when you're when you're young, you just assume that one day you're gonna grow out of some of that stuff. You know? It's like, oh, one day I I'm gonna be fully an adult and then I'm just gonna be stable. You know, and it's like a switch.

SPEAKER_01: 39:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 39:35

Yeah. Like because that's what happens to a lot of other aspects of your life. You know, you're a teenager and you're going, well, I'm gonna get taller and I'm gonna get, you know, more muscular, I'm gonna get, you know, better at this or that, I'm gonna learn how to drive, I'm gonna, you know, it's like all these things kind of fall into place with some time, it all kind of gets worked out, right? Yeah. But something like your own mind is uh Uh something that um gives people a lot of people a hard time, you know, being able to turn that off. So anyway, I I digress a little bit, but my perspective on him really changed. So I I used to be hard on Scott, not because I I didn't like his voice, um, because I I always thought he was a really good singer. But that was part of what made me like him even less, is like he's such a good singer, he's such a phenomenal talent. How could he be throwing it all away like this? And uh, you know, since since I've changed on that big time. And then uh my other thing too is like I kind of um there are probably two reasons for this. One was like being really sheltered as a kid. Um, I think once I was old enough to be making my own choices and what I was listening to, uh I had missed so much. And so I was really trying to play catch-up on like what's what's happening right now. Um, and then the other thing too is like uh I don't know, maybe having because you know, I was born in 1990, so I grew up in the 90s, although I'm I'm a bit young through most of it, right? It's like when some of my favorite records of the 90s are coming out, I'm like four years old. Um but still all that stuff is happening around that time that I'm growing up. Uh and I think I don't exactly know why. I think probably because by the time, you know, I'm I I'm a teenager and let's say like I'm 14 in 2004. So by 2004, the 90s had come to full fruition, and now it was like everything was a weird knockoff of stuff that had happened in the 90s, and that kind of caricature became what I uh wanted to get away from because it all just felt bad. You know, I know you you felt that way about Creed. That's still why I think of Pearl Jam as something that I can't stomach, is bec not because Pearl Jam is bad, and this is this is the bad part for them in my book, is it has nothing to do with them, but it has to do with the fact that there are so many Eddie Vetter knockoffs and wannabes and bad representations of that. I feel like I've had my fill on that kind of thing, but it's all like uh it's like I OD'd on McDonald's instead of like it's like, well, you could go have this good cheeseburger, and I'm like, yeah, true that. And it's that might be a good version of a cheeseburger, but I've had too many of these terrible cheeseburgers. I'm not interested uh in that. Maybe one day I will get my taste for it again. So the 90s kind of represented that whole kind of thing for me, and so it took me quite a long time to start going back to that time period and trying to check out stuff that um that was really important during that time that maybe I had some awareness of, some familiarity with, but I didn't really know it the way that I did, like kind of 2000s on. Yeah. Um, you know, so it's going back to you know, all the grunge bands, you know, Nirvana and Sound Garden and um SDP has kind of honestly been one of the more recent ones. Like I I always knew a good chunk of their music, but getting going a lot deeper in the catalog has happened in the last two or three years. Um they're a cool band in the sense that I I you could say this, I suppose, about pretty much all the grunge bands. Um, but they have uh a really diverse catalog.

SPEAKER_02: 43:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 43:59

And I really love that when a band like I always think about Queen as being kind of the epitome of this, but you could say the same thing going back further, you could, you know, look at the Beatles or the Stones, even um Beatles more than the Stones, but but yeah, where they're like Queen, I always felt like was that perfect band where you you could have if you listen through their greatest hits album, um, so many of those songs could be from totally different bands today. Oh my gosh. You know, yeah. Yeah, it does anyway. That's so cool.

SPEAKER_02: 44:31

It's crazy to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 44:32

It's like whereas at some point I think um whether it was record labels or whatever, marketing people, you know, it's like, well, hey, if if there's a more coherent sort of uh theme, it's easier to market, you know, or easy to sell it if we know exactly what it is, you know. It needs to have an identity or it needs to be whatever needs to be. I think that's the first mistake. Anytime you're saying art needs to be something, you're probably headed down the wrong path. Yeah. Unless it's your artistic vision for what it needs to be. Right. Um, but you know, it's like you it it's hard to find bands like that now, at least popular bands, that have uh a diverse catalog. You know, but they often you get pigeonholed by your own success or by expectations or whatever. Um and STP is a good example of a band that really had some uh had some range in a really cool way, I think.

SPEAKER_02: 45:33

Yeah. You initially think of them, at least from my introduction to that. You already are getting Alice in Chains, Facelift is out, you're probably gotten the EP, SAP has already come out by this point. Stone Temple Pilot starting to get a little bit of a fever, uh, starting to get popular. They do sex type thing, that's a big hit on MTV. Controversial song given the subject matter. And you're like, okay, this feels like a grungy song, and I'm sure for a record label who heard them play and saw them, they're like, okay, we can market this band. They have a little bit of dark thing like Allison Chains does, they have a really cool singer. They obviously at that point in their career they all sort of look very similar. It's like the baggy white t-shirt and jeans and you know, bleached out hair and all that kind of stuff. Spiky hair. Spike yeah, all the all the usual stuff that you find in that time. By the time they get out of the core record into purple, they are now drawing on a ton of influences from Glenn Campbell to to early psychedelic music, to there's some Beatles things in there. And you have obviously Robert and Dean to Leo that are just phenomenal brothers and really great musicians that listen to a lot of different stuff, but then you got Scott on top of it writing melodies that are to me incredibly unique for what the band was. In the hands of somebody else, that doesn't come out nearly in the same way. And they continue, you're right, like Tiny Music, that continues to be a very crazy psychedelic type record.

SPEAKER_00: 47:23

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 47:24

You know, all over the place. A little bit of time signature things like Pretty Penny or Lady Picture Show, these these really cool deep cuts in the record. You get four, which I I personally love. I felt like that's a record where they just said, We don't care what you think about us, we're going to put our demons out in the open and we're just gonna tell you. And so it's a dark record, but in that record, you get Sour Girl, you get you know Atlanta, which is one of my favorite songs, which is a door, a beautiful song that the Doors would have done in their day to me. Totally. Totally he evokes a Jim Morrison thing about him in that song that's just so beautiful and haunting. Um so yeah, and and then again, he has his solo record stuff. Of course, he has Velvet Revolver, and I came back. I I feel I feel like a little bit of the same way. I thought, what wasted talent, you know. I don't know if it's about And I hate even saying that now.

SPEAKER_00: 48:28

It makes me cringe at myself that I felt that way.

SPEAKER_02: 48:32

Well, because you you think of all of them there, you we lose Lane for drugs, you know, in a very horrific way. You got Chris with a suicide, which is also horrific, you know. You have another suicide which is also kind of tied to substances, you know. And sub all of them are, you know. And so but I don't know what it was about Scott. I really I felt in a very similar way where I'm like, why are you pissing this all away? I don't recall having a similar emotion about that with Kurt. I'm sure people did. I certainly was saddened, but I'm much more mature at the point when Chris Cornell passes, where I'm kind of like, yeah. It's a a life giving music to the world, and it's just so unfortunate that those things happened in that space.

unknown: 49:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 49:26

Ta.

SPEAKER_02: 49:27

Hawkins, of course, you know, as a drummer, you know, like you go down the list of people and you just go, man, there was just so many great talents in that time that are lost.

SPEAKER_00: 49:36

But I definitely was hard on Scott for sure. You may remember this more than me, so I'll ask you, but do you feel like maybe the way that he was portrayed in the media might have had an influence on that? Because I feel like the like the narrative around Cornell or with um uh like Kurt Cobain was like that it was this mental health uh battle uh or Chester, you know. It's like it's like, you know, it's this uh battle with depression and anxiety and that eventually brought them to this place where, you know, they felt like that was the uh the only recourse perhaps.

SPEAKER_02: 50:27

The trap the trappings of fame.

SPEAKER_00: 50:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 50:30

I guess um and the overwhelming success that they none of them I think anticipated having happened.

SPEAKER_00: 50:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 50:38

You know.

SPEAKER_00: 50:38

So th those stories always seem to get painted in this sort of like sad story column. Whereas I feel like with Scott it was painted more of like uh rock stars from a previous generation, where it was more of like a uh a living in excess sort of story, uh as opposed to maybe like fighting demons, you know, Lane being another great example of someone who's painted as the tortured artist who could uh struggled to find ways to cope with their life, whether that had been the fame or just their own demons in darkness. Uh I don't feel like that's the story that that um gets told with um with Scott, and I'm sure that that is part of the story. Um but it seemed like it was always painted more as like I don't know, just the guy who couldn't get a grip and liked to party too much, and yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 51:42

I also don't think that SCP ever got the the critical pass that those other bands did. And it's kind of a it's unfortunate to me because I think we talked about this the other day. It's like I don't feel like David Coverdale was Robert Plant, but I I get I can promise you in the time that I'm growing up in which David was pretty big that there was a lot of people that were like he's a he's a Robert Plant clone. I'm not taking Whitesnake seriously because it's just another Led Zeppelin ripoff. So STP becomes like, oh, it's just another grunge band. They're never gonna be as good as Soundgarden or Allison Chains or Nirvana, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They're not that banned. Uh they weren't that band, and they definitely have a ton of musicianship in there. But I think in the moment when all of this is sort of breaking, there are people that kind of got caught in the crosshairs of that. I I I've talked to you about this before, and I know you're you're not a massive fan of Bush. You don't have a lot of familiarity with them beyond a fan of the biggest. But I think like that's another one that's like Gavin Rosdale, like and that band, they they were just in the moment when they're coming out, critically, they just get laughed away. It's like these guys just want to be nirvana. Silver chair, that's another one. They just kind of like come on, guys. It would they felt like it was an AR answer to the wave of grunge bands.

SPEAKER_01: 53:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 53:11

And so a lot of people never took them seriously. So I think what I'm getting to is with Scott, you already have this sort of painted like no one's taken us seriously, even though our audiences and our fans love our music and we're getting tons of radio play and all that. Critically, no one's ever given them a pass. And then it's almost kind of like wanting to watch the train wreck. It's very similar. I'll give Robert Downey Jr. You're just caught in his train wreck, and you just the press and all that stuff, you just constantly feeding you that this person just can't figure it out, and they're squandering, you know, this is an Oscar-winning actor, squandering his talent away, being an idiot, being a Hollywood elite idiot with his drugs and his party and all that. And Scott falls into the same thing. And I I just think a lot of people I really wanted to root for Scott later. Um like I did with Robert Downe Jr. Like I just wanted them to find the other side of it, and for him, for Robert Downey, he did. Scott didn't make it there, and so many of the other artists that we talked about didn't make it to that space. But they left back a an incredible amount of music you know, and something that was really good. I do want to mention this is an interesting transition happen. Um you think about this as a band. Like if if you if you and I are in a band, and let's say you weren't the singer, the singer fell prey to this stuff and ultimately succumbed to his demons or their demons, you know, we're we're a band. We we wanted to keep going and we want to keep making music. And I think so many of the people we talked about have tried to do that. You think of Alice and Chains, they go on with William Duvall, who's an incredible singer. And so do you get mad at Jerry and the rest of the band for trying to put another singer in front of them? Do you get mad at the DeLeo brothers and Eric Kretz for putting Jeff Good uh as a new singer? I mean, Jeff certainly has a a Wylin type thing about him. You go back to Neil Sean and and Jonathan Kane and these guys from Journey, and they bring a guy who who they basically heard on a an audition tape, I think, yeah. And he was an incredible Asian uh singer. It sounded a lot like Steve Perry, and they're like, okay, let's try this, let's see if it works. So bands have proven to be successful, but I do still think there's a a group of people out there that are like you're just out for the money. And it's like I don't really feel that way. I feel like the band, like, it's not our fault that the guy fell prey to this. We still love making music, but I I do think that people get very bitter about other artists going and singing for the band, like Sublime with Rome. That's another example. I mean, there's countless examples of this now. Scott Stapp, I was just about to get to Creed. I mean, he doesn't pass away, but Creed becomes Uber successful.

unknown: 56:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 56:29

He goes through his things, his some demons that he's got going on. He kind of falls into a mental health place. The band somewhat dissolves, and then they come back as Altar Bridge with again and I'm I'm come around now to not hating on Scott the way that I used to, because I was just caught in the same thing. Like, this band is uber successful and ridiculous, and I don't I don't want to love them. My punk rock aesthetic was like, nope, they become too big, they don't get a pass from me. I'm tired of hearing their music every single second I turn around.

SPEAKER_00: 57:01

If they're super popular, they can't actually be good. They can't actually be good, right?

SPEAKER_02: 57:06

Yeah, and so I'm not gonna give any love to that whatsoever. I did also feel like you are a cheap imitation of Pearl Jam. To me, that's completely unfair. And again, to any Creed fans out there, I I've come around to appreciate what they were doing at the time, but at the time when that's coming out, remember I'm growing up through that, yeah, and I'm living it, so I am not a fan of that band. When I hear Altar Bridge, which you turned me on to many years later, I'm like, wait, wait, this is the same band?

SPEAKER_01: 57:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 57:39

Well, this guy is an incredible singer, and I had learned about Miles through Slash and the Snake Pit era, and then the conspirators and all that, you know, when Miles coming out and singing, I'm like, this guy's incredible singer. And you're like, you should check out this band, Ultra Bridge, and I'm like, cool. And again, you led with that, you didn't say necessarily this was Creed, and now they're this band. So I take it on the merits of, oh, I like Miles Kennedy. Let me hear this band, and I hear it.

SPEAKER_00: 58:11

It wouldn't have spared me to hand you that baggage, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 58:14

No, so that AB3 record, which I know is like your favorite one. I think you started me with that record, and I'm like, holy crap, this is a really good band. They're heavy, incredible singer who also plays guitar. They're really good. And you're like, Oh, yeah, by the way, this was Creed. Yeah. Without Scott Stapp. And I'm like, Well, I can get behind this, you know. And they're like, Tremonti and all the guys, it's the same music. Like, you go back and listen to Creed, it's still heavy. There's heavy songs in there. Creed is very heavy, yeah. Yeah, you just didn't catch it because a lot of the songs that got played were the the arms wide open and yeah, you know, uh six feet or whatever that song is called. Yeah. One last breath and higher higher. Yeah. And so some of those didn't feel to me as heavy. And I think there were bands around that time for me, also, that were like um live is another one that again, no offense to them. They wrote great music. I was just not a fan. Candlebox was another one that was in that same place. So when you start seeing those bands kind of popping up at the a bit of the tail end of the grunge firework, if you will.

SPEAKER_01: 59:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 59:27

And then Krieg kind of comes at the end of that and like the 98, 99 era, I'm already just I'm done with the whole thing. I've already put it to rest. So I am not gonna, you're not awakening me for any of it at that point. So it's taking me a long time to come back around. Anyway, all that to say is do you feel that it's right for the band to keep going on with a different singer or do you feel like it's a cash grab?

SPEAKER_00: 59:56

I it's a case by case basis. I mean I understand why people would not want a band to continue as a fan. I could get that. Um I would have had a very different opinion a few years ago probably, but I don't know. It's like i if it's a cash grab or not, it's hard for you to know as a fan because that's that's personal intention. So I don't know. I mean I feel like uh I I like what Allison Chains has done post-Lane Staley. And it doesn't erase the lane era. Um and I feel like they've done a lot to honor that. Um you know, same for SCP. I really like the I don't know the name of the singer they got after Scott, but Jeff Gutt or Goot.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:55

I can't I don't know if someone could correct me on that one. But Jeff Goot, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:01

But still, I mean that I think they only did one full record that I can recall, but um but it's really good. It's really good. And so I don't know. I mean the alternative is saying, okay, well there there's there's there's problems no matter how you try to address it, and I think people will be upset no matter what you do. And I think especially probably the more successful a band is, the more people are gonna get upset about it. Um now there are certain singers that are so are such a generational talent that it's like I don't know if you should try to go on, but if you are successful and you're successful, like SoundGarden's a good example of like Chris was not just a generational talent of a singer, because he was, but he was also really bizarrely creative in a super unique way. And so it wasn't it's not just replacing his singing, but it's also going, well, if you're gonna make new music, I don't know that you can replace that. Now, you know, maybe they do find someone who can tap into that thing and they still create good music. Um I'm not saying that that's their plan. I mean, I have no idea, but yeah, uh I could see that that's kind of bigger shoes to fill.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:27

And that's not to diminish the other people that we mention. Um so it's weird, right? It's like if you're successful, people are gonna get upset no matter what you do. If you stop, people are upset. If you keep going, people are upset. You can pull the move of saying, okay, well, we're just gonna create a new band name so we don't have the baggage of the old band. Right. So sure, but then you're also leaving behind all the important music that you made. And so that doesn't feel right for a lot of bands, I think.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:59

It's gone, well, I mean, did Ultra Bridge ever cover Creed songs? I don't know this, so I'm not I'm I don't think this is a new one for me. I don't know if they ever did. Maybe I don't recall.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:09

I've never heard them do a Creed song. Yeah. Um, they always kept those things very separate. Very separate, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:15

Like they're two different bands.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:18

Yeah, but I mean it might also be a different thing if Scott had passed away. Maybe that they look at that differently. Sure. You know, because as it is now, they always, if they want to do creed, they just go back on the road with Creed. In fact, I think they're working on a new record right now. Yeah, putting out a new record. Yeah. So yeah, I don't know. I think it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of scenario uh for bands. I think if it's a cash grab, shame on you. Uh but also if that's how you make your livelihood and you need to make money, then as much as we would all, myself included, I used to be like such an idealist. And I I still am, I still am. But you know, especially when you're young, you want everything to be so uh honest and so um I don't know, like you want it to just be for the art and nothing else. Right. Right, right, right. There does come a reality of like, you know, if you've got a family and you've got uh, you know, a number of responsibilities, people who rely on you, and you're in a position where you need to make money and you have this band that if you go out and do a tour in another record, like people are gonna be into it, and that's your main motivation is like, well, I you know, I need to make some cash. It is a little bit hard to throw shade at that. Um, especially when you can easily just keep your money as a fan and say, Well, I'm not gonna buy into it because it's not my thing. Um so I don't know. I mean, I'm not saying people should go out there with that intention, but it it I also do find it a little bit harder to throw stones now than when I was younger, and I think when I was younger, I was probably too keen to throw a stone at everything, assuming that most things, you know, being kind of s really cynical about people's intentions and you know, all that sort of thing. So I I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:22

It's like and you're right, because certain bands you just go if Kristen Dave immediately came out a year or two after Kurt's death and they try and find a new singer, I feel like that would have blown up in their face. So for Dave to separate out take some time and then come back doing Foo Fighters, that makes sense. And he builds his own brand by doing that. Chris wanted to get away from it, you know, and and does his own thing. If your SoundGarden maybe enough time has passed that you feel like, okay, if we're gonna try this again, okay, what does that look like? Could we do it? You know the perfect example I think most currently for us right now is Lincoln Park. You talked about Chester earlier. Yeah. They take a decent hiatus, probably eight years or so, maybe longer. I'm not quite getting the dates correct, but I think it was 2017, 2018 when Chester passes. So 2024, they come back with Emily Armstrong now. Um, which to me was a smart. I think I even commented to you about that. Once I heard it, once I first heard a couple songs, I'm like, this is a smart choice. And it it makes sense, a new audience can discover them. Maybe you don't have a lot of people because with enough of that time past, people have grown up, people that might have been in their teens or now in their mid-20s, yeah, and they're kind of have a bit more of a a respect and understanding. They're not gonna be going like, How dare you try and find somebody to replace the amazing Chester? You know, I don't care if it's female, not female, you know, how on earth did you know?

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:17

It was really smart to go with someone who's different, though.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:21

Completely, though, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:23

I mean, that to me that's the smartest thing that they did is saying, like, we're not gonna go try to find a caricature of Chester. No. Right. Or someone who like is gonna imitate him. It's like, no, just find somebody else who fits in with what you do. Right. That that brings a different element to the band. So you can think of it as a different era of the band, you know. And then in that way it's easier to wrap your head around too.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:50

Yeah. That's kind of how I felt about uh William with um Allison Chains, is like you know, he has a different thing and a different characteristic to the songs, and it feels good. And then being doing a full record with him, you start to get used to him, and they've been together now doing that thing for quite some time, you know. So they've had a bit of time to be able to kind of get used to that. But then you also have bands.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:20

Yeah, I mean, Check My Brain is awesome. That's a great tune. It's so good, it's so good.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:29

And to come back after a hiatus and no one's thinking that anything's gonna happen, and you you drop that record um and that song, of course, and you're like, Whoo, okay, this is great. And obviously, Jerry writes a lot, and he had writes a lot of lyrics too, so you feel like okay, yeah, it's gonna have an Allison Chains thing about it, because it's coming from the guy that wrote most of it. But hearing you know, William Singh, and no, he also plays guitar too with the band sometimes, so that to me was was also pretty smart. I'm like, yeah, he's not gonna be lane, it's not gonna be that. And of course, there's people on every single video or any kind of social media thing you want to look, they're they're gonna continue to be haters, if you will.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:17

Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. But but you can't escape that. No, so it also can't be a reason to not do something, is because people are gonna hate on it. It's like people are gonna hate on the better something is, the more people are gonna hate on it. You know, that's yeah, that's just the reality. Well, and I think part of what makes this all so situational too is it depends on what uh the ratio of contributions are from that particular member of the band. You know, like Alice and Chains is a good example where Jerry is and kind of always has been the main like he has an outsized level of contribution to what that band sounds like compared to anybody else in the band. But like if if the Heartbreakers went out and tried to replace Tom Petty, it's like what's even the point of this? Because the guy who wrote all the songs is gone. He wasn't just the singer, he was the chief songwriter. Yeah. And one of the greatest to ever write songs. Uh so it's kind of like, well. Like what what it it's hard to draw that line, but some bands are more equal in how much people contribute, and so it might be easier to absorb and reallocate, you know, uh contributions versus some. It's like, I don't know if it's a good idea to try to replace that person because they kind of were that thing. You know, it's like it it it doesn't even make sense to call it Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers if Tom Petty's not in the band. Right. You know.

SPEAKER_02: 1:11:05

Yeah. That's um there it brings me up to another thought about that. But it's like I've seen so many iterations of this, and I I don't know maybe why I think about that, but I'll go to an obvious one that is Van Halen. You know, we've talked a lot about singers, most of the ones we've talked about recently, and of course, dishonoring Scott and 10 years of being gone. We talked about a lot of singers that have passed away. Scott Stapp being an exception to that. And I'll talk about the more obvious one. And the last, you know, our last podcast, we talked about, you know, the whole uh Coverdale Page record, and I I was talking about how I remember just friends and people, and the general consensus of this is like, okay. Number one, you do a song on your last white snake record that sounds like cashmere.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:01

And then you you go right out of that and end up doing a a solo project with the main songwriter, one of the main songwriters in Led Zeppelin. Like, what is this? You know, so I go like at the point in which there's a split and a rift in the Van Halen camp, and Dave wants to continue to do sort of the campy cover tune sort of vibe that he had and continue with that sort of showman thing. Eddie's getting into keyboards again and getting into that sound, and 1984 is a tough record for them to finish. So by the time they kind of get to the end of that, Dave's like, I don't know if I really want to do this anymore. And I think probably the brothers are feeling the same way.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:50

He separates out, and then they're gonna go and find another singer, and they're like, at that point, you have such a stature and an ego and a thing in the unit that is Van Halen that you go, okay, well, we just can't get any schlub to come in here and do this. Like, so I feel like part of it is like a middle finger back to David Lee Roth at that moment in time and going, Okay, cool. You think you're the boss of this whole band and you're leading us there. We're gonna show you something. How about Sammy Freakin' Hagar coming and singing, who's already, by the way, an enormously established artist in his own right, who's had plenty of success from mantros to his solo stuff. So it's not like he's just some idiot off the street that's gonna maybe sound like David Lee Roth, right? Yeah, he's got enough street cred that it's like, okay, we're gonna get somebody else. And then David goes, Oh, okay, Eddie, cool. You think you're the only hotshot guitarist? No worries. Let me go ahead and get Stu Ham and Steve freaking by to play on my solo stuff, right? So I'm gonna have two exceptional musicians. Oh, Billy Sheehan, sorry, I said Stu Ham. Yeah. Uh but you're gonna have these two guys playing on the record, right? So it's like he's gonna go and build his own thing that's just as talented of artist, if you will. And that whole period to me was so both irritating and confusing, but also it was just you could totally feel that it was born out of competitiveness. It's kind of like Mustaine getting kicked out of Metallica, and his whole entire band was built off of a giant middle finger to that whole thing, and he's proven himself to be successful, yada yada yada. But there again, in the moment in which Sammy comes in, it's like, okay, if he's really gonna pull this off, they gotta bring it. And so there's a pressure for the band to really pull off a record that is coming off the heels of 1984, for God's sake, and a fever pitch of records for them that led to that. For David Lee Roth, mm, the pressure is I can't have some idiots that don't play nearly as good as the one of the best guitars in the world at that time. And still, so I gotta find somebody to be able to hold up and be at that level that Eddie was. And Steve's obviously a great choice, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:25

So to me, that's kind of an interesting little uh thing, and then of course, you have the two camps of are you a Van Hagar fan or a Van Halen fan? Um I've come to love them both now in different measure, but I've definitely gone through the ringer about that in my time.

unknown: 1:15:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:45

To go, I'll go back and forth. Sometimes I love the bombastic nature of Van Halen with David, and other times I just love the craftsmanship and songwriting that came when they were with Sammy. Um those two can cross paths now and feel like they can be in harmony as a collective thing that Van Halen did. And funny enough, to bring it back to Gary Sharon, I still don't have any love for that record. That Van Halen 3 record. I've tried, I've really tried to get behind it. And Gary and Extreme, interestingly enough, to tie it all into a bow, Extreme was like their own sort of version of Van Halen, a virtuastic guitar player, a bombastic singer, an incredible backing band and rhythm section with Pat Badger, and I can't think of the drummer's name right now. Sorry about that. But they're kind of their own thing that that's very much like a Van Halen to me. So it made sense that they're gonna hire Gary to play or as a third sort of iteration when Sammy's out of the band, but that record fell flat on its face.

SPEAKER_00: 1:16:53

Um doesn't even forget about that Eric completely. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, it's it it's funny thinking about that competition and it's I mean any assumptions I make are just that, you know, because it's hard to know what someone's real uh motivation is. But I feel like the c uh competitive nature was more from David than it was from the brothers, the Van Halen brothers, because I kind of feel like if you're Van Halen and you really it's all about competition, you're gonna find someone to out David David's parts. You know, you're gonna find some you're gonna find a replacement of him instead of going a different direction. And I think for David, for as talented as he is, and for as much as he really had a huge amount to do with that early Van Halen sound, the band Van Halen sound, uh I'm still more partial to the early tunes from Van Halen, but I will admit that I think Sammy is a better singer than Dave. Yeah. Um but there's something about that early stuff that's just magical, and I I love it. I love the playing, I love the production, even though the production gets better in the Sammy era, and you know, like they uh, you know, Eddie builds his own studio and they really get to take their time and uh all that stuff sounds better. There's I don't know, there's just something special uh that that I really connect with. But anyway, that said it makes me feel like um David really didn't fully understand what made Van Halen special. Uh he thought, hey, I can just get a hot shot guitar player and band. Kind of like reducing what Eddie and um and the you know the other two uh Michael and Alex. Well yeah, but like what what the basically reducing what they brought to the table as just being a virtuoso not realizing that the brothers have something really special that they've developed through a lifetime of playing together, a certain feel, a certain sense of melody and rhythm, uh, you know, the Van Halen shuffle being a great example of that. Um you can't just plug in someone who's really t talented, and I love Steve Vai. So uh I mean love Steve Vai. Uh so this isn't throwing shade at him, but it's like you can't expect to just throw some great musicians together and assume that they are gonna come up with the equivalent of what you know the Van Halen brothers had. Right, right, right, right. Which is why now, as history has gone on, there is a debate about Van Halen versus Van Hagar, but no one talks at all about that solo record from Dave. Well, there's three records. But well, there you go. I didn't even know that. I only knew about the one that has Yankee Rose on it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:19

Yeah, the Only Rose and California Girls, another cover again. Just like Paradise on the skyscraper record.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:28

Um But it's like the reason why anyone thinks about uh like Yankee Rose now, for example, is Steve Eye. So that's the other, like and Billy Sheehan, but it's like the it's the video and it's the making the guitar talk. It's not about the song and it's not about Dave. I mean, there's probably some hardcore Dave fans out there who feel differently, but I feel like in general, in the in the the echoes of the culture, you know, one has been completely forgotten and the other stands as competitive to the first era of the band, and you'll have people who choose David, and you'll have people who choose Sammy, and you'll have people who appreciate all of it. Um there weren't really any anyone lining up anymore to listen to Dave Solo's stuff, so that kind of tells you something about the whole endeavor, which is interesting, right? Um I because I think at the core one that you know um Dave uh um Alex and Eddie had their own special chemistry, but also they cared so deeply about crafting the songs. And uh Dave, I don't think I uh I've ever gotten the feeling from listening to him that that was as as important to him. You know, the songs to him were just an opportunity for him to do his thing, a vehicle for his showmanship. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But they w they weren't they weren't the end, they were you know the means. Yes. And I think for Eddie and for Alex, the songs were the end. Like that was the whole point and what they were trying to do. And then so now, as time has gone on, that has shown to have more staying power, you know, than the other.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:25

Well, I do it's weird to me too, because I don't know, they're I feel like you when they inherit Sammy, and of course they drop 5150, which is a monster album, and to me can hold up even though people are gonna blast me for saying that. I do think on the songwriting and the craftsmanship that are on that record, it holds up with the other five records that they did prior. Um, because here's a here's the thing like if you don't if you're not if you're a Van Halen fan and you're gonna tell me that 5150 isn't as good as Diver Down, you're crazy. Like that's just that's a flop record to me that that has a ton of covers on it, and there's some great songs, yeah, but you know, it's not fair warning, it's not women and children first, it's not I even think like 5150 could live in the space with Van Halen too, um, as also being strong. There's just really great, great songs, and they were all buzzing and finding a vibe with one another and being excited to think. I do think that Eddie and Alex and Michael even are probably going because Dave in the early years, I mean, Dave was an instrumental part of getting them to all their shows and club, you know, all the backyard parties and sort of all that stuff. He was a big figurehead in the band, regardless of the fact that you just have some hot shot musicians.

SPEAKER_01: 1:24:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:24:01

So not having him in the band, I'm sure there's a point where they're like, okay, what do we do? Right? How are we gonna get this to work? And then you you have Sammy and they're like, Okay, let's see how this feels. And they get in the studio together and it just starts clicking. And of course you have Sammy who can hold up and play guitar and be a good rhythm guitar player and a solo guitar player if need be. So you you you earn a little bit there and you get better songmanship and some other things happening in the band and kind of level up. But I don't know, I always I would say for any really strong person in the David Camp, it's hard to not to listen to 5150 and say, okay, this is a really great record. I mean, it and a really great singing.

SPEAKER_01: 1:24:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:24:51

All of it, top to bottom to me. That there's not a bad song on the record to me. Um, yeah. As it gets later, I do think some of that spark wanes a little. Um they of course get a ton of videos and stuff during this time as well, and so there's a lot going on, and also having to chase sort of the dragon of grunge music and things that were going on towards the end of that era, like the balance album, I think, and maybe OU812, probably in that space where there's they're maybe on the tail end of their rainbow, if you will.

SPEAKER_01: 1:25:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:25:32

But certainly better to me than David Solo stuff as a collection, yeah, for sure. And that's even given the talent in the band, because you're right. I do think it was more of a well, I gotta, I'm gonna upstage you and get the you know, the this virtuostic player who played with Frank Zappa and all this stuff, and we're gonna have all these great musicians and we're just gonna have a great thing just like Van Halen, and it didn't really manifest at that level at all.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:01

Um, because it kind of misses the point a little bit, I think. But also this this whole subject, I I know people enjoy uh debating something like this. Is a a debate that's been going on forever. Forever. The dawn of man. But I also think it's kind of uh it's a little bit of a dumb debate, also. And the reason why I say that is it's like um like if I ask you uh do you like steak or chicken better? And you say steak, then that has to mean that you hate chicken. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:26:44

Right, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:45

And and so I think instead of going into it and going, well, which one is better? You should just go in and go, Do I like this? Do I enjoy the Sammy era? Like if I don't think about it as do I like this better? Is this better than Panama? Like that's that's the wrong way to be thinking about it. Right, right. The way to think about it is just do I enjoy this? And if you do, then it doesn't matter if you like it better or worse, and probably one day you'll like it more than another day you'll like it less. Because that's just how that's just how that goes, right? Like you're uh your tastes are not a fixed thing. Right. Um they're constantly evolving and changing, and depends on your mood. And some days you you really want that classic thing uh that you've heard a million times, and other days you feel like I just need something fresh. You know, I need to I need to experience something I haven't experienced before. So, you know, people get caught up in these things like they are fixed and like that debate even means something. It's like when it comes to anything artistic, the only person that loses if you have judgments about stuff is you because you you miss out on the opportunity to experience something really great because you were too fixated on what it's not instead of what it is, yeah, you know, or trying to quantify it or trying to compare it. It's like that's that's a fool's errand. It's a total fool's errand. Now, if you just don't like Sammy, fair. Then hey, you know, pick pick the David era. But yeah, the the whole debate is kind of funny when you break it down because it's like I mean, this is not sports. We're not crowning a champion at the end of this, you know, it's not a a playoff bracket. So do you like it or do you not like it?

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:48

Yeah. Yeah. Going on and it it going back to the velvet revolver and you know, G and R thing, it was a very similar thing. You know, it's like, okay, well, we're not gonna Oh, it it always is, yeah. You know what I mean? It's like you you have to wonder, okay, and I I mean in the moment, I'm just telling you how I lived it. It's like velvet revolver, really? A gun in the color of a rose. Okay. Right. So you want me to take this seriously. You know exactly what you're doing. Right? That's how my head is. I'm just I'm not even gonna give it a shot. I'm just like, guys, come on. Like we're being serious now, right? Or you know, like this is this feels exactly what it's it's like, okay, well, we're not we can't call ourselves this thing because maybe there's legality there and maybe Axel owns a name, or who knows, God knows what. Right. So we're gonna have to figure something else out, but we want to make sure that everyone knows that it's us just with this other singer that is also well known. So we're gonna do this thing and we're gonna call it this thing. Yeah, you know, and then they'll go out, which I think is really special. Like you see Scott going out and doing it's so easy and stuff off of Appetite, you know, because and this is like the with the contraband album, I guess. Is that the first one? I think it was, right? The first Velvet record.

SPEAKER_00: 1:30:21

That's the first one. I I think Libertad is the second one, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02: 1:30:25

I believe so, yeah. I think so. Yeah. I can't remember. Anyway, going out, I see them at like the K Rock Weenie Roast or whatever. It's like that was a big deal, sort of their coming out party, if you will. And it was a huge festival show that's it was in LA. And I think they were the headliner of that show. I remember him coming out, and it's like uh, you know, again, I'm the arms crossed. Like, what the F is this gonna be? Let's just Yeah, what it, you know, and of course I'm just gonna be guilty until proven innocent. Yeah, it's like, okay, Scott, don't screw this up because I love Guns N' Roses. But are you guys also gonna do STP songs? Because that's also weird to me, too. It's like, you know, I I just didn't know any uh what to think about any of that stuff, and it was happening so much during that moment. Like STP goes and does a band called Army of Anyone with Richard Patrick from Filter, who goes and sings, who's also been a train wreck from you know, alcohol and stuff like that prior to I'm like, oh god, what is happening in the world right now of music? Like, is everyone just grasping to make money? Continue. But now I've kind of accepted and I go, look, Velvet Roller is a good band. They were for what they did and what they were doing, I appreciate it. Audio slave, good band. Certainly appreciate what they did. I love both both Hagar and Roth era Van Halen somewhat equally because it goes back and forth. And like you said, do I like it? They're just different.

SPEAKER_00: 1:32:04

They're just different, they're just different, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:32:06

Yeah, and you know that the person's writing the music there are in different places, different things, trying to do different stuff, but you have an appreciation for it, and it doesn't bother me. And of course, like I mentioned with Gary Sharon, I'm a big extreme fan. I didn't like Gary with Van Halen, it didn't make sense to me, and that's strange to say, given that I thought of Extreme as like a more a newer version of Van Halen when they came out. So it was like all of it was just kind of weird, and living some of that was sort of weird at the time. I think to put a bow tie on all of it, it's like I don't fault anybody for doing it anymore, regardless of their reasonings. I think the bands deserve to feel like they can continue to go on and make music. They don't often have to. I mean, the thing that got them popular that they that would still draw an audience so they can still be heard and seen is gonna be on the thing that they did. So it's a huge risk to do altar bridge when everyone knows you as Creed, right? Um but they were they they became successful in their own right, and and that's amazing. You know, other people like Stone Simple Pilots are gonna go, we kind of want the thing that Scott brought, and so we're gonna look for that. And and again, people might feel a certain type of way about that, but it works for them. So good for you. Allison Chains, different with Willem singing than Lane, but they can still pull off that stuff because Jerry really is the core person in that that whole band. So you and he's also a singer, so you're gonna get, you know, 30, 40% of the songs, he sings himself, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 1:33:53

Yeah, and you know, the whether bringing in a new uh person works or not is ultimately like subject to the opinion of the listener. So, you know, it's it's like you might get a collective decision that most people feel one way or another, but I mean it doesn't none of that really matters unless it matters to you. Right. I'll tell you if you're Jerry Cantrell and you're gone, well, I mean, you know, we're still packing clubs and we're still able to do what we want to do, but some people are mad about it. So what? So what? Those people can be mad. They don't have to listen, they don't have to show up. Yeah. Well, sadly, it appears that uh we will not get to hear Kev's final thoughts on our discussion. Uh his internet went out. So we're gonna wrap this one here. Thank you all for listening. Uh, we uh appreciate it very deeply if you made it this far. Hopefully you enjoyed the discussion. Um yeah, check us out on social media. Um, you know, depending on where you're listening to this, we're on YouTube, we're on all the podcast channels. Um we have a website as well, um, newly on Instagram. So uh yeah, find us, hit us up if you've got a topic you'd like us to discuss or a guest to have on. Um much more coming your way very soon. So thank you all, and uh we will talk to you soon.