The Sonic Alchemy
Welcome to Sonic Alchemy, the ultimate podcast for creatives looking to elevate their craft and gain insider insights into the world of artistry. Hosted by Justin Webster and Kevin Crouch of the band The Silver Echo, this engaging show provides a dynamic platform to showcase artists and delve into the myriad skills and layers that contribute to a successful creative career.
Each episode of Sonic Alchemy offers a blend of captivating interviews and insightful discussions. Our interviews feature a diverse array of artists who share their unique journeys, techniques, and sources of inspiration. These conversations provide listeners with a rare glimpse into the personal and professional experiences that shape creative success.
In addition to interviews, Justin and Kevin host thought-provoking discussions on various topics relevant to creatives. These episodes explore everything from honing specific skills and overcoming creative blocks to navigating the business side of art and staying inspired in a rapidly changing world.
Discover how successful artists overcome challenges and find their voice.
Gain practical advice on developing skills, managing a creative career, and staying motivated.
Connect with a community of passionate creatives who are dedicated to their craft.
Sonic Alchemy is more than a podcast; it's a journey into the heart of creativity. Join Justin and Kevin as they uncover the alchemical process that turns passion into artistry and artistry into success. Whether you're an aspiring artist or an established creator, Sonic Alchemy offers the insights and inspiration you need to thrive.
Tune in and transform your creative potential into gold with Sonic Alchemy!
The Sonic Alchemy
Puppets, Power Chords, And Legacy
A Gretsch Black Falcon sparks a deep dive into Queensrÿche’s Operation: Mindcrime, a YouTube rabbit hole, and a question that hangs over every era: can our heroes still deliver? We talk about seeing Geoff Tate crush high-wire vocals decades later, the discipline it takes to keep an instrument intact, and why some influences echo quietly—Ghost, Iron Maiden, concept records, politics, and those theatrical threads that refuse to die.
The timeline matters. We revisit the hinge years where hair-metal gloss gave way to Seattle gravity, unpack Guns N’ Roses as a 70s blues heart beating inside an 80s machine, and weigh how Soundgarden’s Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction lands—equal parts celebration and ache. Chris Cornell’s voice becomes the connective tissue, moving across Soundgarden, Audioslave, and subway-quiet solo moments, reminding us that range is more than notes; it’s reach across genres and generations.
Then we go fully unhinged. Our new music video for Toxic Heroes is a satirical puppet odyssey: a couchbound viewer doom-flips past pharma ads, reality drama, and political theater while a puppet band rips on a faux-MTV channel. Cardboard sets, miniature guitars, hand-sewn characters, and a TV-portal gag make it playful and pointed at once. It’s our way of asking a simple question with a smile: who gets to be your hero, and what happens when you outsource your compass to a screen? We also dig into why some bands feel uncapturable in the studio—Queens of the Stone Age live versus record—and why restraint on album and danger onstage can both be true.
If you love rock history, vocal longevity, DIY creativity, and a smart jab at false idols, you’ll feel right at home. Hit play, watch the video, and tell us who shaped you—for better or worse. Subscribe, share with a friend, and leave a review so more curious listeners can find the show.
Learn more about The Silver Echo at thesilverecho.com
We're good.
SPEAKER_01:Yo yo, what's up? What's good? What's what is good?
SPEAKER_03:Uh I'm coming in with hot takes today. I got all kinds of stuff to kick us off. I'm feeling I'm feeling feisty and ready to talk. Um you're in your nine-inch nails, so I am in my nine-inch nails, so maybe that's gonna have something to do with it. A little bit of something, something in there.
SPEAKER_01:You got that Trent Reznor uh fire going.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. The oh what was I gonna oh yeah. Um some somewhere along the lines this week Oh, I remember what it was. So I got a Gretsch guitar. First one in the stable from a from Gretsch. Uh it's a black falcon. Um I'm gonna be uh really terrible in telling you the exact model number of that, but let's just say it's a black falcon, and I will get that number to you later.
SPEAKER_01:Um I will say uh it's got the Bigsby, it's got the full spee on it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, uh beautiful guitar. I bought it uh was uh used. Um and so I've been enjoying that anyway. Uh I sent a funny video of uh me playing a wildflower, I think, by the cult. Just a silly video that I was sending to you and a friend of mine who had actually sent me the guitar. And you you laugh because you're like, there's some irony here because I was wearing a Queen's Reich shirt. Um I think at that time. So then I said, Okay, as a middle finger back to you, I'll just go ahead and play like the opening riff of like uh Operation Mind Crime, I think. And so I just sent me figuring it out by ear and just sent you a funny little video to say, okay, fine, I'm wearing the shirt, here's the song. Why all that matters? Um a grudge. Yeah, on a gretch of all, yeah, not an ESP or some kind of random guitar like one of those guys played.
SPEAKER_01:You're talking to me about Brian Setzer and then sending me a little bit. Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. I'm speaking Brian Setzer, I'm playing a Brian Setzer model guitar, yeah, and I'm playing Queen Strike, and not like Silent Lucidity Queen's Rike either. I'm playing like their best record. So Operation Mind Crime 1000. So like any time, and I think this is something that you and I have probably talked about a little bit, but so like any time that something happens to me, it will take me down that rabbit hole of nostalgia. And that record in particular is a portal for me for whatever reason. So just in my silliness of trying to remember what the chord progression or the riff was in that song, I had to. I'm like, okay, well, I have to go listen to the whole record again, top to bottom. So I spent another two days playing Operation Mind Crime backwards and forwards. Um and then I went and watched because this is what one does these days. I pull up YouTube and I go and watch Jeff singing like 2025 performance. He's got a whole band backing him up, and I'm going, I'm afraid. I'm like seriously worried because I'm like, how is this gonna be? You know, we're we're 30 something years out.
SPEAKER_01:He's still uh I didn't realize he had a band, so he's still doing his thing. Yeah, because Queensrike, they they moved on without him, right? And they still do stuff with a different singer and all that. Tori, I think it is, yeah. Great singer. Certainly. They went the journey route, and then what Jeff has a solo career? Or is he he's still doing Queens Reich tunes?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, well that yeah, he is doing Queens Reich tunes. I couldn't tell you, I know he's written some stuff on his own, and I believe I didn't dig in that far to tell you okay, yeah, he's promoting a new solo record or anything like that. I know he's done solo stuff since they split. Obviously, that was some bad blood in the beginning. It seems like for some current interviews, he's sort of like, whatever. We all have to respect what we were at that moment and what it meant to fans, no matter if we're still doing it together. It's kind of like your kids are your fans, and even though you're divorced, you have an uh uh a respect and an obligation to take care of that legacy and still uphold it to the best you can. So both projects are still touring, playing songs from that iconic record. He does, I believe now the video that I watched was him doing the whole thing front to back.
SPEAKER_01:Um wow, really?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So again, I'm not gonna look, you can look it up why if you have a second. I'm trying to guess. I'm assuming he's probably mid-60s now, early to mid-sixties, is my guess.
SPEAKER_01:Anyway, I go to the video and I'm like, Yeah, that seems right.
SPEAKER_03:I'm probably gonna be disappointed. I'm afraid to be. Let's just say it that way. Because I had such a reverence for him and his voice. And I again, you know as well as I do, and we can talk about this for a second, but it's like Vince Neal. Yeah, I was afraid, honestly, I was really afraid. I was like, oh man, because he's got such a big range. How is he gonna be able to pull this stuff off? I mean, he wailed on that record, and you know what as a singer, what it takes to be able to pull that off. And I remember because I did go see them in that era, I saw them on that tour several times.
SPEAKER_01:He comes from that classically trained style of the road, where he does the the more operatic background and really goes for it on some of those parts, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean, going back even to the early songs like Take Hold of the Flame or uh Queen of the Reich or something like that, that those first songs are incredibly high, like of super high register, but he also has a really great baritone type voice too.
SPEAKER_02:Anyway, right.
SPEAKER_03:This whole thing, I'm like, okay, you know how much I love that record. I I I get sucked in, I'm gonna pull this open. And he comes out, it's all this buildup, of course. They have the opening song, and he finally comes out to start singing, and I'm like, oh god, oh please be good, please be good. Dude he crushes it like incredible. I mean, just still and of course, like I said, there's gonna be moments where he has to take a bit of liberty, I think, with the and then again, I didn't tell, I couldn't tell if he pitched down just to be able to hit some of that stuff or not. But I listened to a good forty-five minutes of the whole thing, and was just really honestly truly blown away. And it just shows like if someone's taking care of their instrument in that way And I don't know about him if he's you know was ever subject to any of the usual tropes, you know, but it seems like he took really good care of his instrument and he's still really able to go out there and pull off a record that is pretty massive and a massive swing, even at that time, and still be able to pull that off and sound great. And the band, of course, sounds good. Of obviously, they're doing small clubs and theaters at this point, they're nowhere near the the level, and again, you'd have to know Jeff to know, like if you saw Jeff Tate, you know, doing Operation Mind Crime, it may not even register you the same way Queensreich doing Operation Mind Crime might hit you. You're like, oh, is that the singer? I don't know who Jeff Tate is, you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because he's not as much of a household name as some singers from that era. Right. Yeah, if you're yeah, exactly. If you're gonna go see, people who are into that genre though are gonna know. Yeah, you know. Well, it's like even I know Jeff Tate by name, but of course I wouldn't I wouldn't call myself like the biggest Queen's Drike fan or like aficionado, but yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Right. Well, it definitely got me into the space of thinking about you know, you turned me on to ghost. God, it's probably been eight, nine years ago now, maybe longer. Um, it had to be Milliarde, yeah. And you I think if I remembering this correctly, it's like knowing that you love Queensrike so much, I do think that you might like this band. They're gonna have some of that similar uh theatrics and operatic kind of vibe that you enjoyed, or at least what I imagined you enjoyed from listening to that band.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And 100% that's exactly how they resonate to me. They feel they fill that bucket in the same exact way. But it really made me wonder like, I've never heard Tobias ever reference them as an influence. Not that it's necessarily such a um an obvious one to go to, but let's just be honest, like, he does concept records. There's a lot of similar things that they're talking about and race and politics and religion and and some very universal themes that show up. And they were showing up in Queenswreck long before Operation Mind Crime, but there's definitely some political things in there, there's definitely some societal things that they talk about, and both of them do that pretty consistently across their music. So it just got me wondering like I wonder if um Tobias was ever would he ever or have ever cited them as an influence. If I ever had a chance to meet him, I want to ask him that. Like, did you listen to Operation My Crime? Because we're about the same age. He he must have. I had to, I have to believe, because it is such a impactful record. And people don't talk about it as like they're you know, if you're going and listening or talking to a new metal band now, I don't hear them citing that as their like, oh yeah, that was a big thing.
SPEAKER_01:But well, that's an interesting point though, on its own.
SPEAKER_03:That's they're just like that's such so good. The record is a masterpiece.
SPEAKER_01:Um Operation Mind Crime and and whatever I forget the record name that came after that. Uh Empire. Empire. Empire. I I know for a lot of people that was a big inspiration. And obviously, like especially Mind Crime was a big record. Yes, yeah, massive. Although it might be fair to say that they were a little late to the scene with that, because what Mind Crime comes out like 89, I feel like. Something like that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's probably it's gotta be in the 80, 88 to 89. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Like if it comes out in like 85, 86, everyone's probably still talking about it. But you know, it's like 89 is sort of like the downfall of a lot of things that it might be a little unfair to call Queen's Reich hair metal, but they share a lot with that. They share a lot with that, for sure, I think. And the more operatic style of vocals was more akin to stuff that was happening during the 80s than it was with things that were coming in in the 90s. True. Yeah, they did talk about it. So they kind of come in at the tail end with their biggest record, which was incredible, but it probably happened as the tides were really shifting in a pretty dramatic way, musically. And so maybe today. Yeah, uh well, certainly by like, you know, 91, 92, like things have really shifted. In 89, I'm thinking, like, okay, we go from everything that was happening in the 80s to Guns N' Roses, you know, and that starts to shift quite a bit, even though Axel vocally shared some uh you know, he he shared some familiarity with what was happening before, but yeah, um, and then of course all the stuff with grunge. I mean, by ninety-four it's definitely a whole new world, you know. Yeah, and probably probably a little bit before that, right? But by ninety-four for sure, we can say everything is different now. So I wonder about that because they were they were a big band, and I think a lot of people take influence from them. I wonder how many people maybe think of them as like a guilt, maybe not a guilty pleasure, but like just don't even think maybe to bring them up because like yeah, it's like I have bands like that, and you probably do too, where there are bands that influenced you that have a special place to you, but you also just probably assume that not maybe other people don't didn't connect with it or something, or like like there's a band I think they've come up on the podcast before in like one of our first couple episodes, but like there's a band Zaleo that I really loved. Um they were huge, super important to me, and I still think about some of their music on a yeah somewhat regular basis. Uh, I don't think they're doing it anymore. They've gone through so many lineup changes and they've been around since the 90s, but like they're uh a pretty underground hardcore, at least what hardcore meant like in the 90s, early 2000s, you know, and hardcore kind of started to mean something different in the mid-2000s. Um, and uh God knows what it means now. Uh I'm becoming an old man, so I don't know what what it means to people these days. Right. Uh, but it's like I I don't even really think to bring that band up in conversation with people because I just kind of assume like not that they had no fans, but like it was pretty underground and it was like a thing that I was into, but I didn't really know the people that were into it. And so now it doesn't really occur to me to bring it up to fish and see what other people knew that band. There's I'm sure there's a lot of people out there. Um, I wonder for for artists who were inspired by a band like Queensreich, and and of course they were popular enough that they they probably don't fit into that same category. It's not really fair to compare Zayo to like Queensreich, but I wonder if it is like kind of a similar thing for people where they just go, like, yeah, oh yeah, it means a lot to me. I love that band, but I don't really think to bring it up because like I don't know, it's it's not like talking about GNR or some of the others from that time period that were like the gods of that era, you know, queens right kind of fit in like a maybe an awkward middle space where they were popular, but they weren't like on GNR's level. And you know, and they're certainly not Nirvana, you know, that comes right after that. Um they're not some of the bands that came right before that either. You know, they're not Van Halen in 1984 or you know, some of those things. So you know, they fit kind of this awkward space, perhaps.
SPEAKER_03:Well, it made me think about people that would cite that band as a possible influence would likely go to maybe Iron Maiden first. Um that's and I think so then it made me think, well, yeah, like even Tobias to get back to Ghost, like he's talked about Iron Maiden, he covered an Iron Maiden song on their EP. So maybe that's where it's sort of like, yeah, if you liked Iron Maiden, you might like this band. Um although for me, I don't I can see the obvious things that people would kind of gravitate to why, you know, have a big operatic singer, the music's pretty um progressive by nature. Yeah. Um some can some complex arrangements in there, the themes are there, yeah. Uh lyrical, visual themes. But Iron Maiden probably had a better visual aesthetic, I would say. You know, their shirts are still live on long after people might not even know who they are. They're still attracted to sort of the visual and artistic element of that, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but it definitely so I guess the two things come from that to put a bow tie on the dueling guitars, you know, yes, Queens Reich has a dueling guitar, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:You had Michael Wilmington and Christian Armo, uh, that were also very similar to that space, yeah. Like Judas Priest or Iron Maiden in that way. Judas Priest, another one, completely different style of band. Well, maybe not. If you go back to early Queen's Reich, I could certainly see where they could fit in with the Judas Priest sort of uh vibe. But by the time they got to Rage for Order or Operation Mind Crime, they had certainly found their own thing. And then Empire, of course, is like their biggest commercially successful endeavor. Um they had a massive bunch of another rainy night without you, I think, on their Empire, the song Empire, Jet City Woman, Silent Lucidity. There was a bunch of hits that were like in the top ten um during that era for them. So that was another one where they did take off, and that was in the 90s or 91 era, maybe. Yeah, so still early, but they were I did hear some interviews where they were talking about writing that record and hearing about Nirvana and SoundGuard and Pearl Jam and Allison Chains, but they're like, Well, we're gonna keep doing our thing because we're we're pretty happy with what we're doing. Um, so they just kept going, they didn't really adjust in the way that other bands were trying to. And you mentioned Guns of Roses, like Guns and Roses to me was an interesting one. They get planted right in the middle of hair bands. They, of course, are part of the sunset strip scene that was going on with all of those other bands at the time, but they very much were, in my opinion, the antithesis of that thing. Yes, you watch Welcome to the Jungle video, actual has the tees hair. That I think to me personally is the one and only time I've ever seen that. The rest of it, they go back to a 70s sort of Aerosmith aesthetic. Like they're like, nah, we're not doing that. We're wearing jeans and t-shirts. I'm not wearing the girls' clothes.
SPEAKER_01:They're they're tight pants and they're shirtless or I mean, not completely shirtless all the time, but you know, and and long hair, right? Like long hair kind of is out in the nineties, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Well, by the nineties, yeah. I'm just still thinking about appetite era, like 1980. Yeah, 89 and 89, they're getting into use your illusion.
SPEAKER_01:Did appetite come out in 87?
SPEAKER_03:87, yeah. So and they were on the scene a couple of times before that. Yeah, they're already doing uh I think Lies that EP comes out in the middle, and then use your illusion, the double record. I believe I'm gonna get this wrong, but it's probably 89 to 90, right on that bubble is when the double album comes out, and they go massive. But to me, they always felt like a 70s band. They always to me reminded me more of an Aerosmith than a Molly Crue or a rat or poison or something in that in that sort of era, you know? To me, that's what I felt like. Maybe the riffs, maybe their overall aesthetic, maybe they were just so unapologetic about the drug and alcohol use both in their song and on stage, um, that it just felt a bit more punk rock to me than the rest of that sort of that scene. And I love that scene, you know that, yeah, but it definitely felt different to me.
SPEAKER_01:Um well, they certainly have a that's so interesting. I never thought about it that way, and I'm inclined, my gut wants to disagree with you, but I also but I also see what you mean because um they're not doing any of the things so uh Guns N' Roses to me is a guitar band. You know, it's like the core of what they do is guitar. Yeah. And you don't really hear any of the tropes in their guitar riffs that you would hear from all the other 80s bands. Um like, and I don't know how I would describe that if I'm put on the spot. I think about like like pedal tone riffs that have a lot of like those two-note chords. Uh it it's not that thing. They're not docking. Let's put it that way. No, they're not docking. It's not rat. No. And rat's even a little earlier, right?
SPEAKER_03:Like they are, yeah. They're early 80s to 84, 85, and they're in that sort of place.
SPEAKER_01:But there's still a lot about them that doesn't feel 70s to me at all because it's so uh their their music is so upbeat, like it's so fast. And it's so it feels uniquely 80s, kind of in that way, that the tempos are much higher than what you would generally hear in the 70s, and it doesn't have the pop sensibility that I get from a lot of bands from the 70s that have this very like I'm not saying that bands in the 80s weren't melodic, because I don't think that's fair to say, but there was more of a pop sensibility even in rock and roll in the 70s, I feel like. And uh Guns N' Roses is kind of brash, not in a not in like an ultimate punk rock kind of way, but like Axel is not the most palatable singer, you know, and I mean that with love because I because I like Axel, and and we've talked about this before, right? Like there are there's a grip of singers that I can name that I'm sure this will piss a lot of people off, but like that I don't think are really great singers, but they're great singers. Uh and that's like Axel, Dave Mustaine, Tom Petty, uh you know, guys like that that like based on just their voice, they shouldn't be great.
SPEAKER_03:No, they just found a way to connect.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but somehow like they they rise above the fact that their voice is not the voice that really I want to be hearing. Like I kind of wish those bands had a different I can't say I wish they had a different singer because their strengths are so high. But it's like tonally you almost wonder, like, man, I feel like if I heard that, if that if that guy tried out for my band, I'd be like, uh, maybe I'm gonna keep looking.
unknown:Sure.
SPEAKER_01:Which would be a stupid thing to do because obviously they're huge, they're awesome. Yeah you know, so so it's weird to think about that.
SPEAKER_03:But what I was going to in that point, I think to think Aerosmith is a pretty clear reference to me because they're a blues rock band. Guns of Roses on the Surface is a blues rock band. They they also what I also found very interesting to them to me was that he also had he leaned into like Leon Russell. There was some stuff like going way back to 70s stuff, like Axel playing the piano and doing these songs. Like he's an Elton John. You can tell like there's Elton John influence in there, there's Leon Russell influence in there. There's definitely a 70s kind of vibe of like a not necessarily like your Kansas or Sticks, like progressive rock or Toto, right? But you're you're into, like I said, Aerosmith, pretty clear to me, like uh, or a band like Triumph or Accept. Some of these bands that kind of crack in the 70s and then obviously get big in the 80s. Kiss is another one that would probably be in there that's a bit more obvious in that space. It's sort of just straight up rock and roll, no frills in a way. Um and that's kind I think that's what I meant.
SPEAKER_01:But what I think was in the 70s, but they dwell, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:That was yeah, hey, it worked, even though people hated it and they alienated some audience members in the process.
SPEAKER_01:At the time, people hated work. I love that stuff now. I mean I think that song was really good. I I think I was made for loving you is like their biggest song on streaming. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's their number one song. So he's wild. Like, yeah, it's a great song.
SPEAKER_03:But they I guess when I got to the point of seeing GNR, what you notice is that the way they dressed, the way they looked, it started to change bands that were used to the teasy hair and the weird, like I said, sort of the feminine or feminine clothing and things started changing. A big one was like Cinderella. You go Cinderella's first record there, you look at that album cover, it's all teased out hair, and this clothes that look almost like Prince would wear. Um and then by the time you get to I think it's their third record, they've gone full blues, like it's a blues rock band. And they were always that was always there with them, but they really leaned into it, and it became jeans and like a like a frilly shirt, but not the same kind of you know, their hair's down, it's not teased up, all that stuff's kind of gone, and they're sort of leaning into that space. Tesla, that was another one that was always kind of in that vein as well, where they they sort of leaned into the jeans and t-shirt sort of 70s look. There's just no frills, just get up and do their thing. So I felt like they kind of pulled into that that um they pulled sort of the the music that was going on in the 80s. They did even before Nirvana cracks, I think Guns N' Roses was like, we're not doing that. We're not we're not poison and trickster and warrant and we're we're not that. We're this. And you either like that or you don't, but this is who we are, so you know, hopefully you do. And and again, that was a big change towards the end of that 80s era, and then of course you get slapped with uh the Seattle scene, and that um that pretty much destroyed it all. Funny transition into rock and roll hall of fame. Um very excited that Soundgarden got inducted. Um not that for any of that stuff, and even for them, I'm sure they were kind of grappling with it. I watched several interviews with them. And I think Chris, they talked about Chris inducting Hart back in 2014. Yeah, and Chris said that long? Yeah, Chris said something to Kim, I think and Matt at the time that was like they're asking him, like, how did you feel about it? Was it stupid? You know, was it all the commercial nonsense that, you know, kind of leaning into it, and he goes, No, you know what? I I kind of got it now that I've done this, that it's really a a celebration for the fans who who have really found love and appreciation for the music. And so when they get a chance to get to do that, and it was like a very um familial celebration. You have Chris's daughter there singing, you have uh the the girl from the pretty reckless singing, uh, which I thought was very Taylor Mommsen, which was really funny. The tie-in to Jim Carrey, Jim Carrey and because of the Grinch. So that thought that was really interesting that you know she's like the little girl from Hooville with the Grinch. Um but Jim, I didn't know this either, but I guess it was 96 he was hosting SNL and he requested that Soundgarden be the musical act because he was such a huge fan of theirs. So he was a big fan of theirs and kind of broke them in that space. I think it was 96, it could have been earlier, I could be getting that date wrong, but um they were talking about that and why that was such a special choice for them because I thought you know, sometimes you just pick a random person, maybe not in that in the rock and roll hall of fame and ducky stuff, but I found it to be weird. I'm like, why Jim Carrey? That's odd. But yeah, they kind of explained.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. But really just he liked them though, because I think No. Yeah, like uh of course he he's an actor and a comedian primarily is what people think of when they think of him. Um so it's not like music is the the headline, but it it seems like he finds a way to tie in His musical taste in subtle ways. Uh, like even thinking about Ace Ventura, you know, uh I think Cannibal Corpse was not just like the director's idea. Uh I could make it. No, he probably pulled something, but yeah. But yeah, I feel like that was like something he was into, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, just pull something random in there, which is really cool. Yeah. Yeah. Um so I got of course it's not aired yet, but you can watch YouTube and find a couple of clips that haven't been pulled down yet of some of that performances. They sounded great to me, you know. It was cool seeing Hero 2 there. I thought that was really special that they sort of bring him back and put him back in there because he definitely was a founding member and sort of pioneered the aesthetic of what they were and what they became. So I thought that was special that he got a chance to come back. Although he says he was incredibly nervous because he had never played in big stadiums like that. The rest of them, of course, got used to that. But for him, it was always like clubs and theaters. So he never really got a chance to kind of do that. He's like, I was it was out of my element, you know. Um, but he felt very special about it. He was very tearful in the interviews that I saw, like really realizing what the moment meant, you know.
SPEAKER_01:You know, I hope this isn't like a tasteless question to ask. But I do think about it. It's like Do you think if Chris was still alive that they would have been inducted this early? Because I feel like with you know, and not just the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, you know, the same goes for for sports and a lot of different things. It's like I'm not saying they shouldn't be in there because I think they should. Absolutely they should. Um But it also seems like every year there's bands that it's like, are you kidding me? How is that band still on the waiting list? You know? And it's good. I think there's always gonna be that, you know. It's like a bummer that it seems like something terrible has to happen for people to get recognized, you know. I mean, I'm not saying that Soundgarden has gone unloved or unrecognized, clearly. I mean, they're they're a massive success, but I I personally I I maybe take it a little more personal because I'm such a big Soundgarden fan and a Chris Cornell fan. Um, and so it's like on one hand, I'm like, great, awesome that they got put in there, and then part of me is also like I I don't know, I feel a little bit of cynicism toward the whole thing a little bit because it's like I don't know, it's like you I don't even know how to describe how I feel about that. Uh, but just like when it comes to awards and those kind of recognitions, it's like there's a part of me that feels like I hope this isn't like a pity thing, you know. Right. It's like you and you and you wish that everyone, including Chris, could have been there to receive that honor, you know. Yeah, and it's a bummer that it's not that way. Maybe that's what makes me feel that way, is like really it's grappling with that feeling, but then projecting it on other parts of the process. Uh but you do wonder when when you see other bands that haven't made it in that you're like, that's crazy.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no, like what that like what every year, and I go I go through that too, where we'll see who's up for you know, to be inducted. And of course the fans vote, and I'm very happy that they showed up in droves to to put it over the edge and get them there. Um, of course, the white I'm not talking about the other ones, of course, in that space, but white stripes got inducted this year, outcast gets inducted this year, bad company gets inducted this year. There there's several in there.
SPEAKER_01:That seems like one that's pretty late.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I mean comparatively, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I mean, it it is different to see like uh, you know, you wonder like why now versus why wouldn't you have done it 10 years ago? But then a band like Soundgarden, you go, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:If Chris is still alive, feels like they got in maybe a little early, comparatively. Yeah, but they they should be in there. They should be in there. So I don't argue that, but I just look at the theme and then I go, Well, they got in pretty early. Like, how does that happen? You know, you think it's just the fans. Maybe it is.
SPEAKER_03:You know, on the upside out, like 96. 96. Probably the last record before King Animal in 2012. So it was a long break. So 96 to now, you're almost 30 years next year. Yeah. We're coming up on 30 years since their last big record during the heyday. That's not to say King Animal isn't great. King Animal is a fantastic record.
SPEAKER_01:King Animal is amazing. And it's a great thing. But down on the upside is also a masterpiece.
SPEAKER_03:1000%. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, down on the upside and super unknown are like untouchable masterpieces, top to bottom.
SPEAKER_03:1,000%. Yeah. Unquestionable to me. Um, but the whole discography to me is really great. It's not like they were bad. They just kept finding different things and new things. But the point is they were pretty raw early.
SPEAKER_01:By the time the gear is 30 years it's you know dialed.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know. I don't feel uh obviously I feel like it was due, and I'm I just very happy that um that bands that we enjoy do get recognized in that way. I know it could be all fluff and people may not take it seriously, and all the things that we could talk about, but um it was it was cool to see, and I I did appreciate that um they at least get some kind of recognition for that. It's not like they're going and winning a a pile of awards, but I think anybody now, especially when you hear even pop singers, country singers, um, all different genres, they're going and singing, like hearing Brandy Carlisle, like doing Soundgarden is a trip, but you just see like how massive Chris's influence and the band's influence were to different artists, regardless of the genre they end up in. That's that's the legacy of true artistry to me, is that they've left something that was so impactful that people feel so connected to it now, almost 30 years away from when it would came out, that they're still like that as something very special to me.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I'm getting chills on my whole body just thinking about Chris and that voice. I mean the whole band. I I don't mean to sell anybody in that band short. No, they're all mad. But what a magical combination of people and that because man, like I don't know. I mean, this is probably a whole nother conversation, but like his when I think about the totality of what he personally created, it blows my mind and it goes across so many genres, because I mean you have everything that Soundgarden did, which is even on its own very broad. I mean, you've got stuff all over the map with just Soundgarden, and then you've got Audio Slave, which was also really great, and hit a whole new group of fans, I feel like. Oh yeah, for sure. Because I don't know, I mean, I'm sure there was a lot of carryover, but I imagine a lot of people who got into Soundgarden or got into Audio Slave were very likely Rage fans first.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I would expect, you know, and they're like a decade younger a fan, so it's not a guarantee that they grew up with Soundgarden, although they may. But then you have his solo career. Mm-hmm. And you have not just his acoustic solo career, which I think comes to mind for a lot of people, but there was even a lot of variety within that. Um depending on what record you listen to. And like I'm a big fan of the one that everyone hated, which was the one he did with Timbaland, which the scream record.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, the scream record, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Which is like this hip-hop-y, pop-produced, weird DJed kind of album where every song blends into the next song, and it's like one long experience of everyone really rejected it because it wasn't Soundgarten, I feel like, which is which is fair. But like if you just listen to it as its own thing, the songs on there are awesome. And then you see, like, he takes those songs on the road, and they and they're done with the band, and you're like, this is nothing like the record, and it's equally freaking super cool. Yeah, I don't know, man. Like, I I'm such a big fan of his, and it hit me so hard when he passed, and I think about all those things, and it just means so much, and so the the whole rock and roll hall of fame thing is a little bit weird for me. Like, I haven't I got excited because I saw all the things that you were talking about, like I saw the people who were involved, but I haven't really wanted to watch the videos because I it's still kind of raw for me as a fan, you know, and like I love that other fans got on there and voted them in. Um and like I have these weird, like we're we're having this conversation, I'm having flashbacks to like the um uh the Museum of Popular Culture in Seattle, yeah. That I I got to go to that a few years back and they have so much memorabilia from all the Seattle bands, um, you know, sub pop and all that stuff. But like, you know, they had a lot of stuff there from Chris and and you know, like Jimi Hendrix and stuff too, which is so cool. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But I have a really vivid memory of standing in front of this one particular case that's got Chris's boots. Oh yeah. It's Chris's boots and his jacket and jeans and stuff, you know, like kind of set up in a silhouette in this case. And I'm just like I don't know, I I it's not like I sit around and think about it, but it does flash in my mind sometimes when I think about him. I I never got to see him in person, which is one of my deepest regrets. Um I had really only one good opportunity to do it, and I it didn't really occur to me that I might not get another chance. Uh and ironically, it was the show that they did with uh Nine Inch Nails um there in uh uh uh Mountain View. Yeah Shoreline at the Shoreline Amphitheater. That was super good. I really wanted to go to that, and I just ended up missing it somehow and just being dumb, you know, and not paying attention to dates. Uh but uh but yeah, it's like I I think about his impact on me and so many other people, and like I feel it in my body, like how much of a impact he made. And I know like across so many genres he's been that for for so many other people, and um, you know, the way that people reference and talk about him is so special because they revere him as like I know there have been a lot of people who um uh related him to someone like um um like Robert Plant, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's the most obvious one to me is like their band is very much like Led Zeppelin for our or for my era at least. They odd time signatures, interesting writing, they didn't sound like anything that had come before it. And they just took you to different places in a singer.
SPEAKER_01:Anywhere anywhere, anywhere, and nothing was off limits, nothing. You know, it's like at any moment it could just go from here to there, and it's like but it feels natural, yeah, special.
SPEAKER_03:Interesting that we both end up with big singers completely different from Jeff. Yeah, by the way, also from Seattle, for those who may not know Queens Reich, of course, coming out of Seattle. Um, and then of course, Chris as well. Massive, massive voice on that guy. So crazy. Oh, there was another, not shifting too far away from what we're talking about, but another interesting one that came up that I saw on um on the socials was David Coverdale is retiring from Whitesnake. Yeah, yeah. That or retiring in general, I think he's retiring the band, yeah, I'm assuming. Yeah, you know, and also this need to maybe just step away. And you know, John Sykes, of course, passes away, who was a massive um uh part of that puzzle for Whitesnake um for quite some time. And now with David kind of stepping away, it was such it was so clay. Did you watch it? It was super classy, and it was like really a very cheeky um English way to sort of step away. But in the most um I've always felt like when I've listened to him, and I was a big fan, I'm not gonna even pretend like I wasn't, like I'm a yeah, I was a big fan of Whitesnake long before even like slip of the tongue era or their self-titled album with like Still of the Night and uh stuff. Like going way back, like slide it in, and um some of that era of their music was really great. And also, he sang for Deep Purple, so it was like he's been an like Sammy Hagar, just been doing it for most of his life. An incredible singer, and an incredible singer, and still what I've got to do.
SPEAKER_01:Even if you're not like a big white snake fan, it's like it's kind of hard to deny a voice like that.
SPEAKER_03:Like he's he's truly great, truly of the area for sure. Tying back to Led Zeppelin just now when you brought that up, it made me think about that because he did mention, of course, like he got to play with Jimmy and they did the Page and Coverdale album that came out. I don't know if you ever heard that record. No, but I think I don't think I could do that. Yes, and back in the time when that happened, that was super for music world, that was probably controversial because they're like, how dare Jimmy Page go and get what we feel like is probably a Robert Plant sort of clone um to go and do this record. But the record was really good. It was it was super earnest. They had a good time, from what I understand, doing that record. But it's like David in his own right, as a he was a great singer, certainly brought a lot of influence in that in that era. Whitesnake continued, I mean, even so much as a few years ago, I had watched a couple videos for them, you know, because I like to go and see how do these guys hold up, how do they still sound? Yeah, very similar to what I just talked about when we kicked this off with Jeff. David had taken good care of his voice, and so he wasn't hitting all the high crazy notes that he might have done in the past or doing as much of that sort of falsetto-y thing, but he definitely could still do it, and he found ways to make it still sound great. It wasn't phoning it in, it wasn't just cashing a check. He really enjoyed what he's doing, so it was a it was a little sad day for me. How old is he now? I mean, is he in his own? He's gotta be his 70s. I have to believe his 70s. I would assume he's probably 75, 76. I'm guessing. I haven't looked. Yeah, I probably should do more research before I bring that stuff up, but nonetheless, you know, people have the same accent.
SPEAKER_01:Go look it up yourself.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, I got into White Snake because of Steve Vai, you know, which would have been maybe for for a lot of people a kind of a funny entry point, perhaps, but it's like I knew of Steve before I knew of Whitesnake, um, but then you know, getting into it from that point, and I mean they had a lot of great songs. Um and they are pretty of the era that they're from, but I also don't hold that against them because I feel like it's like of every era, there's a handful of artists that are like really defined by that era, but also defined the era. Yes. And so it's like they get a pass in the sense that like they weren't like especially you get into the the late 80s and some of those bands that are popping up, some of which we even brought up. Like, I'm I'm I'm not really a poison fan. Uh I I mean some of that stuff that comes out later, those all feel like derivatives of derivatives of derivatives of some of the other guys that I would consider more the taste makers of the era. And Whitesnake fits toward the top of that for me of like a band that that people copied more than a band that like went, ooh, this is what's popular, let's do this, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think even their ballad, like you think about like is this love? Like most people are doing cowboy chord GDC, like heaven or every rose has a thorn type of balladry, which is three chords, big songs, of course, but that was like if you're a producer for bands in that era, you're just saying, no, guys, listen here. This is what you need, these three chords, come up with something that talks about lost love, and we're good to go. Like your patience, yes, right? Patience is another one in C G F. Yeah, yeah. So, but White Snake does Is This Love, which is kind of a minor song that goes into a major. Of course, they have you know, Here I Go Again, which is their majory kind of song. But Is This Love was a different type of ballad, I think, in that sort of world when everyone was you know asking, you gotta have a ballad, you gotta have the still of the night type song. Um, funny for me too, like I love the slip of the tongue record with Steve Vai, and I did see them, of course, in that era. There's a song on there that um, and I bet we're we will get some comments on this one if we cut this out into a little short. But the song Judgment Day on that record. Does everyone still feel like that still ripping on Kashmir? I really want to know. Because it damn sure.
SPEAKER_01:Cashmere's been ripped a few times.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, it yeah, but yeah, uh it's gotten pretty close to me in that space. Now, Steve did a great job dancing around the main riff and making that really exciting, and it goes in a hundred different places, yeah. Um, different from Kashmir, but the core of that song certainly evokes that vibe, and it just makes me laugh when I kind of think about that. So I just thought, I wonder if anyone feels the same. If you're out there and you you're bold enough to listen to this podcast, thank you, number one. Number two, I'd love to hear what you think about that, and please debate it out with me if I'm wrong. I'm happy to admit that I am, but I certainly felt like in the time I was like, all right, guys, you gotta be kidding me now. Like, this is too much like Led Zeppelin to not be considered that's what you're trying to do. And then, of course, after that, then he goes page and you know, page Coverdale record, and you're like, okay, I'm not crazy. He's definitely, you know, people are starting to think, but I don't know. I yeah, I never felt like and this is something that's interesting to me, like bold statements I'll make here. I never felt like David Coverdale was Robert Plant. I I understand maybe why people felt some of those similarities, but I never got that to me. There's similar things like um Billy Squire. People thought because of his sort of higher register, and that's a guy I'd love to talk about more on this podcast, too, because he never gets enough love for. I just went and listened to his essential thing on Apple Music the other day. Man, what a string of great songs and great songwriting. Um, and I was reading a whole story of like why isn't he kind of lived on and like people still go back and talk about Billy Squire? Because I mean there was interesting four records, four or five records there were I mean, you're talking about three or four hits out there, like just like Foreigner, like they he had tons of hits. And I found that there was a Foreigner's also a band that doesn't get a lot of love these days. Not anymore, not as much as they used to, and certainly not enough, in my opinion, for what they did and their influence. Anyway, people also.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, if you listen the best of Foreigner, I mean, that's also just freaking pretty crazy. I mean, it's so good.
SPEAKER_03:Anyway, I think Billy Squire uh you definitely kind of felt like he could have fallen in a very similar place to Robert Plant. But I never felt like any of them really sounded like that to me. Um certainly not like um Greta von Fleet. Like if I'm gonna go and I'm not I'm not coming to back to rip on that band again, but they clearly evoked that thing. Yeah, but if I felt like it was anybody that really tapped into the sort of soul of what Robert Plant did, that's Chris Robinson to me. Like that's in an in a very I know that's a very odd thing to say, and maybe people don't find it in that way, but two things will back me up on that one. He lives and breathes the 70s aesthetic of rock, like that's just him. There isn't he can't there's two gospel in him though. There's a lot, but well, here's the interesting piece about that though like go think about Led Zeppelin, like where do they start? They they start themselves in in blues, like the stones.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Stones didn't start that way, they found it later. Yeah, Led Zeppelin kind of lives again. You think about Black Dog and some of those, those are blues songs. Like Jimmy Page is heavily influenced by the blues, so they go with blues singing. Well, again, Chris obviously comes later in life, and he's influenced by Rod Stewart and, of course, Led Zeppelin and the Stones and those kind of bands. Yeah. But I have personally never heard anyone hold up and do like to see that performance, and now that record's out, of course, thank goodness they released it and it's been a while. But the the Greek performance with Jimmy Page and the Black Crows, where they do it's like two and a half, three-hour long set, and they cover a ton of deep cut and popular Led Zeppelin songs, and Chris destroys it. It's I mean, in the most I've said this to you, I think, before, if I were Jimmy Page at that moment in my life, and it enough time has passed that I'm kind of past my Led Zeppelin thing, and I get a chance to do those songs again with a band that earnestly wants to impress me and do a good job of pulling those off, and then you get on stage and you feel it, and you hear Chris and the band, you can see in some of those cuts of that performance, Jimmy's super excited. Like you can feel he's like come alive again because a band that really had a lot of love and reverence for Led Zeppelin is doing those songs with him, and they're vibing off it just as much as he is. And so it was a very interesting transference of energy. You can tell that the band is so honored to have Jimmy, but Jimmy's also like we probably haven't sounded now this is as close to what Led Zeppelin would sound like now as if we were still had the same band, you know, if that makes any sense.
SPEAKER_01:And and there's a difference between like uh there's a difference between doing a karaoke version of something or reinterpreting something in your own way. There's a difference between both of those things and from being capable of like I think about like an electric car plugging in, you know, it's like being able to plug into the the original sort of power line or energy of that original creation. And it's like some artists are able to get that from other artists where they're like, I understand this thing on such a a level that's below the conscious level, like I connect to it through my heart. I I understand what it is besides the fact that like I've listened to it a lot or that I just like it. It's like, no, I come from the same universe, I come from the same thing, yeah. I'm able to connect to that beam of energy and then translate it in what might not sound exactly like Led Zeppelin, but it comes from the same place, it's not coming from like a mirror or like a sub place. It's like, no, no, no, you're you're hooked up to the original deal, you know. Yeah, I that's how I felt about the explaining it poorly, but but yeah, and I I get what you're saying, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, they're very much because they, you know, the songs they're not metronomically perfect, they're they're sloppy and in and out of the pocket, very similar to like when you're hearing live videos, and I don't know how much you've gone back, like Song Remains the same era. Like, go back and watch some live versions of Zeppelin in their heyday, like in the 70s, late 78, 79. You go and see them play, and then you watch clips of the Black Crows with Jimmy Page, you'll see, I think, s exactly what you're describing. Is they do kind of come from that same thing. I've never felt like the Black Crows weren't an earnest thing. I know a lot of times back in their heyday, a lot of critics kind of came after them and said, Oh, they're like the faces, or they're like Rolling Stone. Yeah, they love all those bands, but no one's doing that music in early nine, no one's even coming close to one and that's like putting a western out now in the cinema. No one's going to see it. That's like one every 20 years you get to see, because it's just not something that's gonna necessarily resonate. They're putting that record out in early 90s, Shake Your Moneymaker, 89, 90. No one's doing Southern rock like that, and at least not that cracked open what they did.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's interesting because that also ties into the beginning of the conversation of what a weird time it was from like let's say let's say like 88 to like 91. Yeah, yeah, is like you know, you've got Jeff Tate and Queensbright. And you've got the Black Crows and you know, Shake Your Moneymaker, yeah. And then you've got GNR, you know, kind of living somewhere in there, yeah. And everything else starts starting to bubble up, you know.
SPEAKER_03:I feel like there's somebody that that should do a documentary just on 1989. We've talked about this too, but it's like um Faith No More is the real thing album comes out in that year. It's like uh there's some very interesting, provocative stuff.
SPEAKER_01:Taylor Swift did a documentary on that, right? Oh no, no, that was just that was just an album, I guess, 1989.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, was that a was that a big record for her?
SPEAKER_01:I don't know. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know. I think she did okay.
SPEAKER_03:She she's yeah, I feel like she's gone on to do some successful things in her career. Yeah, she might be all right. We'll see. She's probably yeah, we'll see. We'll give her a few more years, we'll see what happens to her. Maybe she uh emerges, you know, as a titan in the industry.
SPEAKER_01:She can rise to the top, let's see.
SPEAKER_03:Oh my god. No, I'm all over. I know I came in hot with Queen's Rike, but I also wanted to tell you here's a really fun thing to shift a little bit of gears to. But um so we've talked about Rob Zombie as a director and we've we've leaned in a little bit. I think we talked about Punks and Demons, which is the first sort of song off of this new record he's got coming out, aptly titled The Great Satan.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And we joked about it's not got twenty five words in his title, you know. It's just pretty Yeah. Yeah. But it's also it's kind of to me tapping into exactly what I'm feeling. Coming from this record. He just dropped a new song on Friday called Heathen Days. That is did you listen to that song? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Does not to me sound like anything from White Zombie or Rob Zombie's sort of catalog. It feels very immediate, visceral. I keep saying ministry because it does give me um totally, totally a vibe of ministry in a way that in the in the most respectful of ways.
SPEAKER_01:But uh doesn't sound like a rip-op, but yeah, it sounds like it comes from that. But it does remind me of like some of his earlier stuff too. Like um, but it it's I mean, when you say immediacy, yeah. I mean, the song is like is it even three minutes? Like I don't think so. It just kind of gets to it.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And it rips, yeah, it rips.
SPEAKER_01:It just sounds great.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, it feels like it makes a ton of sense for what he should be doing.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:He sounds really good.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I was really impressed, and it's like something else that I've always kind of obviously to get Rob's sound vocally, there's a lot of layering and overdubs and different things there to kind of craft sort of Rob's sound. And again, people have done this and broken it down and kind of talked about, oh, if you want to sound like that, yeah, you know, here's some things that you could do to kind of create sort of the sound of what he does. This also doesn't sound like that to me either. Like there's different things from a production standpoint that sound different to me. But very similar to what I was talking about, the um one assassination under God album, the the latest Maryland record, they're both on nuclear blast, um, which I think is pretty special for that label. Obviously, they've been around for a long time. But something that's very interesting about them is that they're very heavy, they're a heavy label, they're known for that. And so both even heavier than those artists. That's what I'm saying. So when you get the Maryland record, that record is heavier than a lot of Maryland stuff. If that can even make sense, that record is heavy in its production and in its sort of raw, visceral nature. That new record is very heavy to me. And it and as a fan of his and listen to all of his music, that is definitely a return to form. And of course, going back to hearing people singing live now, if you've not heard Marilyn lately, you absolutely need to go out and listen to him. He is flawless in the performance, like put a lot of time and energy into getting his instrument back the way he used to be, and it's incredible to see. Um, very excited. Looking to forward to try and see him this upcoming year if he comes around. Rob's the same thing. Like, I've never thought of Rob to be a great singer, and I don't think Rob would either, but he enjoys what he does, and I think he's good at what he does. But even this record, it just felt like for both of them, and maybe it's a state of the world, maybe there are things there that sort of influenced how people want to approach things, but I always feel when there's sort of chaos in the climate, if you will, that for musicians sometimes they draw from that as inspiration and they put out records that are a little bit more raw to the point, not overproduced. I haven't felt like the Maryland record did not feel overproduced to me. Neither of these Rob songs feel overproduced, they're just kind of there. Like they sound good, they're raw, they sound really um angry, I guess is the best way I can say it. Um but angry in a very authentic and earnest way, not forced, or not because it's you have to live up to the aesthetic of what you've done. Um but just because they felt like, oh, I have something to say now and I want to say it, and this is how it's gonna go. And it just feels like for both those records it kind of came out of nowhere, but maybe a place where they're like, no, I have something to say now and I want to do it. So I'm I'm excited for Rob's record. I feel like it's gonna be um I hate the word return to form, just seems stupid, but it maybe this back to sort of hearkening back to those things in early white zombie and uh even Rob Solo stuff that were that attracted me to it uh in the beginning.
SPEAKER_01:They definitely I think it's fair. Uh any artist who's been around for a long time is bound to uh probably uh go either one of two paths, right? Like either you keep writing the same record over and over and over again. And not that that's always a bad thing. Right. You know, it's like like the the crown jewel example of that is ACDC. It's like no one wants to hear anything other than ACDC from ACDC. Like we we don't need a uh what what are you shooting uh airplane uh airplane liquor? This episode brought to you by five hour energy.
SPEAKER_03:Five hour energy. Uh when you're fifty and you gotta keep it going. Five hour energy. Yeah. All the unhealthy ingredients bottled into one.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Kid.
SPEAKER_01:I kid, sorry. Yeah. Um, but yeah, you you either keep making the same record over and over again or you have whatever makes you great initially, right? Like the thing that made you start doing your thing. And then you have to like meander maybe not meander might be the wrong word, but you have to go exploring through other things because you're an artist and you get bored doing the same thing. And so you gotta chase what's interesting right now, and who am I this year, or at this point in my career, and what haven't I done, and what do I want to challenge myself with? And then if you're lucky, you have a career that's long enough that brings you back around to kind of coming back to home base and having that feel fresh again because you kind of haven't totally done that in a while, and it feels exciting to like reconnect with that part of yourself, and not that you ever let all that go. Like Rob Zombie has always sounded like Rob Zombie, and so is Marilyn Manson. I mean, it's not like they completely went away from sounding like they did when they came out, right? But you know, it's like your motivation for what it is you're doing or what you're connected to or what you're interested in, like all those things kind of come in seasons, and so it's cool to see a band come back around. Like, that's kind of how I felt about uh um not this most recent Metallica record, but the one before oh Atlas or what is it, Atlas?
SPEAKER_03:No, what is it called?
SPEAKER_01:Atlas on hardwired, hardwired, hardwired, yeah. Hardwired to self-destruct. Now, look, I get it. Hardwired doesn't sound like you know uh Master of Puppets. Yeah, it doesn't sound like Master of Puppets or Ride the Lightning or Kill Em All, right? Like it doesn't sound like those early things, but there was something about that record that felt really energetic and exciting in a way that reminded me of something that they might have done when they were earlier on in their career. And I really appreciated that as a listener because like I don't know. I mean, like it's easy to jump on the bandwagon and be like, yeah, load, reload, you know, uh I'm wanting to say some kind of monster, but that's not the name of the record. Uh same. St. Angro.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, those three definitely get a lot of hate.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and then Death Magnetic, of course, like got a lot of hate because it was such a long time. And then when it came out, the production wasn't that great. And I think the songs probably are better, but you know, when you're coming out with Unforgiven 3, it's like, okay, you're kind of asking for it.
SPEAKER_03:It's interesting because Rick Rick did that record, which I think is very funny. The people panned the production because it wasn't Bob Rock, but it's like that's one too that I would I'm gonna challenge people. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:That's getting on that place, but there aren't I mean, even compared to Rick Rubin records, that record doesn't sound good. Yeah. Like it just doesn't, like it doesn't really sound good. I'm not saying the songs don't sound good or that the the band isn't good, like yeah, the way that it comes through the speakers doesn't sound very good compared to we talked about that like um Mark Ronson's uh villains record for Queens of the Stone Age.
SPEAKER_03:Like I love Mark Ronson and I absolutely adore Queens, and I love that record. But if you to if you're gonna ask me, does it sound as good as like clockwork or as good as even uh time uh in Times New Roman, the answer is no, it it doesn't, it doesn't live up. So I get you. And again, like I love Rick, you know, but yeah, it doesn't sound the same, and it it doesn't hold up as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and Queens is an interesting one, and we need to earmark this for another conversation. And actually, I want to change the topic here and talk about our music video that's coming up. Oh my god. But but before we get there, let's put a pen in the conversation of Queens because Queens of the Stone Age is a band I don't feel this way about every band, but it'd be interesting to unpack other bands that fit into that this category. I feel like I can't think of a single song or album from Queens that comes anywhere close to capturing what that band actually sounds like if you see them live.
SPEAKER_03:That's fascinating to me, yeah. But I get it.
SPEAKER_01:I'm not I'm not talking about energy, right? Like there's an energy to seeing a band live where it's exciting and raw and real and you know, you have that connection. I I don't even mean that part. I mean they don't even sound like the same thing. Like, yeah, like if you go see Queens and you hear, of course, their on some, you know, they're I'm just saying ensemble, but they're like, you know, their collection of songs from across their catalog and albums. And then you go listen to that same song on any album, you're going, why does it sound like that? And I'm not saying that the records are bad, because the records are good. So it leaves me in a really confused place because I'm going, This sounds like two different bands. And and I'm sure that there are other artists that fit into that category where like I feel like Josh and that band have a certain idea of how they want things to come across on a recording, but then those same rules don't seem to apply at all to what you hear when you hear them live. Like they're so powerful live. Like crushingly powerful, and I don't mean like mashuga, you know, or something like that.
SPEAKER_02:Right, right, right, right, right, right.
SPEAKER_01:But like it crushes, and not just because it's loud, it's like it has a whole different energy to it than when you hear it on the record, it sounds so much more like quirky and silly and almost like tame comparatively. And maybe I'm alone on this one, and maybe people will blow us up in the comments and and tell me that I'm crazy, but I've seen them live and I've heard their records, and I feel like they're two completely different things.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And that's wild to me.
SPEAKER_03:Having seen them on most of their at least from Songs of the Deaf on, I've seen them on every tour or for every record from songs on. I didn't get to see them with Dave, but I saw them on that tour, and then continuing on. And I do feel like, and maybe Josh, if you were to ever answer that, and he probably has somewhere, I think there's a sense of danger in the unpredictability of what it's like riding a wild stallion, and you're trying to tame it on stage in real time, but at any point, it could go wherever it's gonna go, and you have to just be ready to be along and hold on as well as you can. And I think there's something that Josh teeters with that a lot where it's like I want it to feel dangerous because he's such an Iggy pop fan, and that's gonna go back to Iggy Pop's aesthetic, and he wants something that feels a bit dangerous. Like obviously, I know he got in trouble for kicking the light and the camera or whatever it was in some girl's face. So it's like he lives on the edge of those kind of things, and and I think musically, uh seeing them live, it also does that. It has the ability to almost feel like it's gonna come off the rails, but the so the the exceptional musicianship in that band never allows it to go there, but certainly feels such a different thing than when you hear their songs on the record. And their songs are heavy. Songs are deaf is a great record.
SPEAKER_01:And that's probably the closest to what they actually sound like is that record. And I feel like every record after that, there's something about the quality of the way that those songs come across that feels kind of like retro-y. Cause I mean they're very mid-range focus, and I know that Josh is a huge fan of that sound in the studio. And I think it's a cool sound, but like they're so much more full range when you hear them in person that it's like almost hard to wrap your head around. And I feel like I was ruined by seeing them live because now anytime I listen to their music, I just want to hear it the way that it sounds like I would love the the Rick Rubin approach of going, like, I want to be able to capture this the way you sound together in a room, and I feel like none of their records actually sound like that. That's the songs for the deaf being the closest.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Logis and era vulgaris are records that I do feel like come close to me in that space. Like if you're listening to them, I feel like to me it sounded like, okay, I can start to feel like how this translates. But I'm wondering if it's just, you know, is it different gear? Is it different stuff that they use? Are they just kind of like, oh, we're just gonna play? And very much like a band of the 70s or areas, you know, that we've talked about as well. They want their live show to feel a little bit different than the record. It doesn't feel like even I'll go as silly. Which I think it's cool, by the way. Yeah, I think that's cool. It is, yeah. It is, it's kind of like seeing John Mayer. Like, I if I I I would not want to go see John Mayer play straight up what he did on the record. I I would probably be bored by it. Uh, but I think getting to see John do John and taking liberties with songs and shredding when he feels appropriate to do so, it brings on a different thing. And it makes some same thing for Dave Matthews, it brings a different thing. Like you go see, listen to Dave, go listen to a Dave Matthews record and then go see him live. That there's nowhere even close to being the same thing. Not even in how it sounds, you know.
SPEAKER_01:And you you kind of expect that from a jam band, right? It's like you you know if you go see Grateful Dead or Dave Matthews or a band that does that kind of thing, that they're gonna go places you don't expect. But it's like you're gonna hear the horn sound the same way for Dave Matthews and the acoustic guitar and the drums and all that. It's like it all resembles like what you're getting on the record, it's just they go different places with it. But when you brought up John Mayer, I think that's actually a reasonable like facsimile maybe. To the Queen's reference, yeah. Yeah, because I kind of agree with that too, where um John Mayer's records tend not all of them, but they tend to be a little subdued sounding. And then when you go hear it live, it's very hi-fi and it takes on a whole doom thing. Yeah, and uh yeah, the the drums are more live. It's like he tends to go for more like kind of uh a more deadened sound typically on a recording. The guitar parts are pretty dark, and usually he's far from overplaying on a record, and there's not maybe quite as many layers, you know. It's like it it's almost an operation of minimalization, you know, it's like a minimalistic yeah, yes. It's like, how little can I get away with to make this song work? In in general, I you know, uh, yeah. There's examples where you could yeah, but then you go see him live, and it's like he's got the backup singers and he's got you know at least two other guitar players other than him. You know, the drums are live, you know, in a big environment where everything sounds huge. And then of course his playing, you know, he's he uh finds that edge that you talked about of danger, where it's like I could just play the solo the way it was on the song that I recorded, which was an exercise in restraint, or I can push myself to the point where I might screw it up, or everyone's wondering if I'm gonna screw up. Am I gonna hit a bad note? Am I gonna push it too far? But I'm gonna straddle that line and I'm gonna do something that's really exciting for people and exciting for me because I'm kind of pushing the boundaries and I'm seeing where this thing will go, and I'm doing something that's a little bit different, and you you could sing how it is on the record, and when you start singing along and then you hear it going somewhere else, you're like, Oh, this is cool because I'm so used to it this other way. Uh I do think there's something special about that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So maybe it is that sort of sweet and sour thing of restraint a little on the records for and of course two different, you know. I'm sure the people out there are gonna go, how on earth do you put Josh Homie and Queens in the same in the same effing conversation as John Mayer? Guys, if you know I think it's a good thing. I get that that's weird, but it's all love. But I think it's a fair comparison, though. It is restraint. There is restraint there in the records, but when you do see both of them for different reasons and for similar reasons, they do push it because of that connection. I do feel like that there's something in innately there where it's like, I don't want it to feel safe. So much so that maybe it's like I don't know if it goes to the level like Bruce Springsteen was doing where he would just turn to the band and go, two, three, four, and they're gonna be like, What yeah, what song are we doing, dude? And he'll just he's like, you know, tells them to play a song from 25 years ago that they've not even done in a rehearsal or anything. He's just like, We're doing this song tonight because I feel it. And it keeps them all on their toes. And so maybe there's something about that where it's like, we don't know if it's gonna go off the rail. And the audience probably doesn't know either, and there's some excitement about that. They're like, Oh, I'm not gonna put my phone up for this because this sounds like it's going somewhere else. Like, I, you know what I mean? Like, maybe it it kind of there's a power in it to me. I know we talked a little bit about this on the other podcast, but you know, again, like people like Louis C.K. they go out and they're not necessarily afraid to bomb a joke anymore. In fact, they just lean into it and go, I'm just gonna rest in this space for a little bit because there's something very special that they're trying to do with the audience that we're not even necessarily privy to, but they're trying to find something that they're looking for. And maybe John, Josh, and the band, they they're doing the same thing. And so even from how they set up their amps, all this stuff that they do on stage, they're just like, yeah, it's not gonna sound like their record, but it's gonna sound like us playing live. And yeah, that is something very special. I know they're going out and been doing this um very cool sort of stripped-down versions of their songs, and they've been taking that live at the catacomb sort of thing and doing it in different venues across. I've seen a bunch of clips of them doing this. It's so cool because that's very much ever present in their songs. They have such a good sense of melody and different things that they can arrange those songs in any number of ways. They don't sound nearly as heavy or as bombastic, but they're still really cool.
SPEAKER_01:There's something very settled. It's an approach. Yeah, yeah. Again, bringing back to that. But yeah, I mean, that whole thing always made me wonder. I I don't think this is probably true. I mean, it almost couldn't be true with how good technology is now. But it may it makes me wonder with a band like them is like, is it just not impossible to capture like some bands you hear the record and then you go hear them live and you're like, that's exactly what I expected it to be. And then other bands it's not, like Queens. Uh and again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it makes me wonder is like, are not all bands equal in their ability to be captured in a recording like that? Or is it just the approach of the engineer, or is it such a different mentality for the artist in that arena than it is in another, to where you're like, yeah, no, I I want the a listener to have that experience. Like I want them to hear, you know, I appear missing on the record and go, oh, this is really cool, and then go and see it and get you know, like their face melted or whatever, like by how it's how different it might come across. And that that might be a bad example, but yeah, I'm just thinking of you know that that happens to be like my my favorite Queen's record is the uh light clockwork. Light clock work and all those songs are so cool.
SPEAKER_03:Um that's a very interesting transition to our video, which I know we're we're saving we're saving the best for last, so we might as well. We're an hour and a half team, so we probably should get to it. Yeah, we just saved the best for last. So, all right, fans and loved ones, uh we are dropping a new video. Um of course I don't even know how to start with this one. Um nor the genesis of it. Maybe you have a thought. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01:I'm just gonna tell people because there's something so cool about this, and that this is the absolutely craziest thing that we've ever even thought about doing outside of a joke. Yeah. Um and I like that we're at this point in a way that we're like not taking ourselves too seriously. I think there's a there's a tendency, there's a tendency, is like you put all this time into the music and the songs, and you're really hoping that people are gonna dig it, and then you want to put your best foot forward, and so you make a video that is really polished and really thought out and has all kinds of cool special effects and uh and all this stuff, right? You try to, you try to it's like showing up in your Sunday best, right? I want to give everyone the right the best chance to love what it is that I do. There's nothing wrong with that. And we've done that several times, and we will continue to do that because there's a place for that. But I also think um, you know, one of the things that we've tried to really challenge ourselves to do is to say, okay, we live in a new world. The world that we grew up in doesn't exist anymore. Um it's not the world of you make a great record and uh a label signs you and puts a bunch of money behind it and makes all the stuff and you have their marketing and you know you you blow it up that way. We live in a w in a video first world, and so whereas we may be musical artists, and that will continue to be our main thing, is it is unavoidable to realize that in order to uh um I'm not gonna say there's any one way to be successful, but a big part of like just how people consume any sort of media is we do it through video now, and and we know this because that's how we we get our stuff, right? It's like you're on Instagram or you're on YouTube or you're on TikTok or wherever you're on, and that's how people are finding stuff. And so if you just have an audio track with no visual, that's tough, right? And so that that got us going, okay, it's it's time to get with the times and stop playing this outdated game of like we just need to land on a playlist or whatever. And so that led to, you know, it's like in the first uh, let's see, from 2018 to 2025, we have a total of three music videos. And now uh it this year alone, with this new record, we're about to release our third video with several more planned already. And this new video that this whole preamble is really just to say that uh when you start making a lot more content, you start getting to a place where you're like, well, we gotta shake this up to keep it interesting for ourselves, um, but also to maybe find really unique ways to convey a point of view that could be tricky to convey in conventional ways. So I don't I feel like you and I both had this idea, and I don't remember if I got it from you, you got it from me, we both had it at the same time, but I remember how I remember it happening is us talking on the phone, us talking about videos, and me going, Kev, we should do a video for toxic heroes, which is the song that we're gonna do. So if you've listened to the record, you you may have heard the song. I hope you have. It's a really cool song. We need to do a video for toxic heroes. Um, but the lyrics of that video are really pointed. Very um, and they're I mean, there's quite a few songs on the record where the lyrics are not so poetic that it's hard to decipher their meaning, right? Right. But but that one in particular is very clear in what it's saying, right? And it's it's really calling out a lot of the the BS that surrounds us all the time through through social media and some of the things that that we were just talking about. It's like um it there's an instinct for people to present themselves as something that they're not. Um, and there are a lot of people who are following people who they look up to without realizing that they're like terrible people or they're like a really bad example to be following.
SPEAKER_03:Um or maybe even the thing, the institution in which they're placed. Like if you're seeing so like a celebrity reality show, it's like totally it's a conventional mechanism to sell ads. And it's you know, low cost for a studio, they make a ton of viewership on it. Like it's a it's a cash grab. Um and they're exploiting some of the personality types of these people who who might have been you may have been big fans of for the thing that they did. But now they're being crooks in these things and environments in which you're like, I'm watching them because I'm a fan of them or their music or whatever they did before, and now it's like it's almost like like watching a car accident in a way. Um we're always attracted to those things, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You and I we're not the same age, but we both grew up in a time where brands were brands. Now people are brands. That's different. And I'm not saying that there weren't the the Marilyn Monroe's and the Elvises and those uh uh past generations who kind of were leveraged in that way. But now it's like if if anyone's gonna be anything, you have to brand yourself. And so everyone is a commodity, right? And everyone is there to and and look, I'm I'm not saying It's all bad, right? There, there very well may be a time where we're selling ads on this show. Right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, in fact, I hope that time comes because that means, yeah, I mean that that means that we have garnered uh a viewership that means that we can st start to really support ourselves with what we love too. Absolutely, right. But there's a a huge dark side with all of this where it becomes um, you know, we live in a a time where it's hard to take anything anyone says seriously because it feels like there's an ulterior motive or that people are willing to do things for their own benefit that may not benefit you as a follower. Um and we see this in politics without even choosing a political side. You see it on both sides of politics, which it's unfortunate that there's only two, right? But uh that's the world we live in as of 2025. Um, and you see this in all kinds of things, right? And it's like constantly that there's some scandal about a celebrity or you know, a person that's in power that everyone thought was a great person, that it turns out the whole thing is a grift, you know, and you can think of all kinds of examples of this. Anyway, that that's kind of what the song lyrics are about, right? So there became this big challenge of like, how do we depict this in a video? We're not trying to be uh, we're not even really trying to take a stance as much as just saying that this is what's happening in the world right now. Yeah, it's just I'm on the phone with Kev and I'm going, look, we need to make a video for the song. Why don't we? And it's almost like step brothers, so we just become best friends. Uh you know, it's like we're we're both going, this needs to be made out of puppets.
SPEAKER_00:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01:And which is a a crazy idea. And you and I are constantly throwing out crazy ideas that generally we laugh about, and then that's it. It's like forget about it, move on.
SPEAKER_03:They don't manifest, right?
SPEAKER_01:But this is one where we're like, no, I really think this is the right avenue to do this because we can caricaturize this whole thing in a way where we're not making it too personal about any one thing or person. Because also that's not really the point, right? It's like yeah, it's less about um people being bad to follow, and it's more about like saying, Stop following stupid people, like yeah, like like stop assuming that this one person is like what you want to model your life after. So, anyway, I throw this idea out, and Kev goes, Yeah, I can figure this out. And I know you'll want to talk a lot about the creation of all of this because really, I mean, generally our videos have been a collaborative effort with only our most recent video not being that way, and and even that was because you had to shoot new stuff, and you know, you gave me feedback and whatever. Yeah, um, but this this one was the first time that you created everything from scratch on your own. I really had no influence on the creation of the video because uh you did such a phenomenal job, and I I'll let you take it over. But I mean, you might when the video comes out and you see it, uh I my fear is that people aren't even going to recognize how uh on first watch aren't gonna recognize how much thought and effort was put into the video because it looks so I mean it's like the puppets catch you kind of by surprise in this really uh and it's in a good way. But you built these really cool sets, and uh, I know your mom helped out a lot with this because she's so good at the craft, crafty kind of stuff. Um, but to put it together in the way that you did was so cool, and I can't wait for people to see it. Uh and I think it makes the whole thing silly enough that people will hopefully uh be able to set their outrage aside if it pokes them in a place that makes them uncomfortable and recognize the the spirit of what uh of what we're trying to create. But um yeah, I I guess take it from here and just say like your perspective of hearing this whole puppet idea, and then you kind of bring the whole thing home. Uh I mean, I know you put a ton of work into it. Uh, what was that like for you?
SPEAKER_03:Well, first, okay, so the genesis of toxic heroes, we wanted to do a video that was going to be silly, like White Limo from Foo Fighters. I remember that being a conversation we tossed about early into the when we started talking about doing a whole host of videos for this record. And we're like, wow, we loved how that looked, and Lemmy and the limo, and it was most to be the aesthetic of an old skater, like a thrasher skater type video shot on uh like a VHS camcorder. And so the whole look of that, the Dave and the band wanted to kind of come up with something that looked like that. For for us, when we talk about puppets, yeah, it was the idea that the song is so pointed, and even our recording of that song, we were all kind of angry and frustrated in the day that we wrote that, and it just kind of came out in a very visceral way. Um and so when we approached it and you mentioned this and we started talking about puppets, I'm like, oh boy, okay. So I think you eventually what's what's Lamb Chop or whatever I think was the sock puppet. I think they're like, Oh, you know, like something like that.
SPEAKER_01:And I know Yeah, I'm thinking Lamb Chop, or I'm thinking like some of the weirdo puppets from like Mr. Rogers or something. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. But something in such a way that from a viewer's stand, you know, you know, it's so disarming enough that you don't hopefully get really offended and in its content. And so I thought, okay, so first off, is like, how do we how do we get pull this off? Well, I go to mom and say, Hey, I'm thinking about doing a video and we want to do Justin and I talked about wanting to do puppets. And I think the idea after I kind of wrapped my head around what a concept could be, I'm like, imagine a puppet sitting in an apartment, he's watching a TV, and like many of us these days, you're channel surfing or split screening, whatever you want to call it, and you're looking at something that's just dribble, right? It's depressing news, it's presidential things that you're seeing, and sort of the messiness of politics sometimes, it's reality dramas that are constantly in your face, it's stupid ads for whatever medicine or thing is trendy or fad worthy at the time. It's all of that stuff, right? And like you mentioned earlier, it isn't necessarily to say that's all bad. It's just to say too much of a thing like that could certainly lead you down a wrong path, in our opinion.
SPEAKER_01:So do it with moderation or just don't make it, don't make it your God, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the whole false idolatry and all the stuff that's there and us coming from very faith-based backgrounds and all that stuff. It shouldn't be, it's certainly not surprising the message or anything that come out of it. Anyway, all that stuff aside, all I do is mention the idea of this and say, what we're gonna do is the guy's channel surfing, and he flips over like an old school MTV, and he sees a video of this puppet band playing the song, and he's like, Yeah, that's what I need to watch. Let me just watch this for a minute, and somehow or another, the TV kind of has a personality of its own, very much like an old TV that keeps glitching out and going back to the crap that he doesn't want to watch anymore, almost like it's forcing you to sort of watch this thing that you're trying to get away from, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So I I describe this crazy thing sitting on the couch one morning to my mom, and I go off to work or whatever, and I come home and she's like, Hey, I made a sock puppet. And I'm like, Oh my gosh. Okay. Yeah. And she starts naming him, you know, like funny, clever names, because some of them might look like I said, I need a I need a character that maybe looks again. Please don't be offended by all that. It's like a Kim Kardashian type, right? Yeah. Like I want something with a caricature of something like that, like a reality show person. And so she makes a puppet that that's like that. It's a very South Park-looking version of what a Kim Kardashian would look like, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Then the next thing I know, it's like a couple hours later, I'm at work, and she sends me this video and she's playing gin and juice, and she's got like a Snoop Dogg puppet that she's made with these dress. But she spells it D-A-W-G because my high school mascot was dog, like bulldog, but we spelled D-A-W-G, so I thought, oh, that's cute. That's a little Easter egg for those of you who watch the video. Then it's just literally day after day of another puppet, another puppet, another puppet. And I said, Okay, hold on. We've got all these other puppets. Of course, she does a puppet that's kind of again loosely similar to our current president. Um and I'm like, okay, this is gonna get interesting. How am I gonna really handle this? Because the last thing in the world I want to do, and you and I've talked a lot about that, was really try and irritate anybody, right? Um I'll say I'll say this out loud. It's but he's as if it were Biden, I would have picked on Biden. If it's Trump, I pick on Trump. If it's Obama, I pick on Obama. I'm I'm agnostic in that way that I'm so open politically that I challenge all of it. I challenge the whole political establishment. So it isn't just a fact that Trump is kind of punching down. I would have been doing that with anybody, and it's just satire.
SPEAKER_01:But it's anyone who takes any person and puts them up above their own reasoning, their own reasoning, above their absolute it's like when when anytime there is someone, whether it's politics or anything, and it's like they can do no wrong, well, now we have a problem, right? Because that person is has basically become a god, right? And it's like we're all fallible people. We should be able to look at things critically. Right. Uh whether whether you agree or disagree, or agree with some or disagree with some, it's like, yeah, I mean, the the real housewives shouldn't be your primary, you know, um what was the word I'm looking for? Uh you know, your your inspiration or your like uh it shouldn't be your Bible, your prime your primary influence in your life, right? It's like, and that should be obvious, but unfortunately. That shouldn't be your religion.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah. So anywho, yeah, so she gets all these puppets that I can use for sort of the channel flipping kind of things that we decided to do. Then she makes us um versions of us who don't look like us, but they just look they're just awesome. You know, they just look incredibly cool. And then I'm like, okay, well, the pressure's on. So I had to start thinking about how am I gonna make a set? And I really wanted the sets to look kind of real. So the first one I think we did we bought all these trifold boards at like a hobby shop, right? The blue one we made because the studio that we've recorded a lot of the music in, a lot of stuff is called Blue Voodoo. It's blue moving mats, you know, that we hung up to dampen the sound. So everything on the walls is all blue. So I thought, okay, we'll recreate the studio that we recorded in. I hung literally lights on this trifold. I hung, I took miniature shots of the actual posters I have in the studio and put them up on the walls. And then we just went, we just went off and we started challenging each other. Like mom would start making my yellow drums drum set, and she started making it out of just cardboard and painting the logo on the front. And I'm like, oh my god, well, now I gotta do symbols. So I started finding like, and this is all household junk, and there is a behind-the-scenes video that I shot. You'll all see that later. But the point is we just went off, and it became a very special project for both my mom and I to do together. We are both hyper-creative people, but sometimes we we are creative in our own spaces. Yeah, but this is sort of one of the first times in a long time where we actually got to work and do something completely together. Yeah, and so she's making puppets, she's helping make sets, I'm finding cardboard things, and I'm like, oh, this kind of thing looks like a podium. Let me go spray paint that black, and it's gonna be the presidential podium. Yeah, I think one of the coolest things she made, and I commented on this in the behind the scenes video. I said, Mom, I need to figure out a way for the puppet to be sitting in a lazy boy chair, like the recliner she sits in a lot to watch TV. I said, I'd figure this out, but I don't want it to look just like a cutout. I need it to kind of look like I can shoot it from different angles. I go away, I'm working on something completely different. I think I'm making uh a bookshelf for the apartment. And I get all that done and I come back and said, Hey, I made the bookshelves. He's like, Look, I made the sofa, and it's like a furry, lazy boy looking recliner with a hole in the middle for the puppet to go up through. Almost got teary. I was like, this is really gonna be special. This is very it's gonna be really, really cool. I found a a friend who I talk about a lot who's a guitar player at work. He said there's this place called Axe Heaven that makes miniature versions of guitars that look authentic to the original thing. And I'm like, oh my god, okay, well, yeah, let me see if I can find a gold top Les Paul and a Butterscotch Telly. I'm sure as sure as anything, they had them both. So I get them both, you know, and again, one by one, we start making all these incredible sets and putting all this thing together, and then I said, Okay, yeah, there you go. Exact.
SPEAKER_01:It's a miniature of this very guitar. Yes, I even I had had this pick guard off for a while, and after you made the video, I'm like, you know what? The pick guard should go back to the city. Pick guard's coming back, it's nice, it's a good look. Yeah, it's a good look. I've come around. I used to be a no pick guard on a on a Les Paul guy, but yeah, I don't know, we're like, we're feeling this out.
SPEAKER_03:We're feeling it out, yeah. Um so anywho, we get the sets done, and then I'm like, okay, holy crap, we gotta I gotta make this thing come to life. I think one of the funniest things you told me was like, Kevin, you went so I started sending you like test shots of the um the sets, and you're like, I I just don't even know what to say. I made like a brick background to look like exposed brick, like it's a New York apartment. Yeah. I do a blue screen for the window to key in an actual city background at night. Um that's such an extra thing to do. It's so extra, it's so stupid and extra.
SPEAKER_01:It didn't need to so extra. But it's awesome that you even wanted to go that far.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think that's really cool. I got miniature lamps, I have rugs, I made a coffee table, the TV, and all this stuff. Anywho, all the sets just came to life in such a special way, and then I had to figure out how to animate it. So I'm like, okay, well, I could handle one. I, you know, I'm like, I need to get my wife involved in this, and and I know I really wanted her to be a part of this because it felt like a family thing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So I'm like, hey, I need you to come out, and she's you know, reluctantly, like, oh god, what are you gonna ask me to do? And of course, I'm being an asshole director and say, No, I need you to turn it this way, you gotta do it, you know. So um, but I finally she gets to help me do this stuff, and everything is like a unique challenge. We're having to figure out how to do it because I've never shot a puppet video before, much less a music video, and certainly not a concept video that involves both a performance aspect as well as like this cutaways to this, you know, this character, this sort of bunny in an apartment, which by the way, mom, again, the the main character that's watching the videos is a bunny, i.e. bad bunny. So that was her uh so the bunny ears and the top hat and all this stuff. Because she's making all these celebrities. She's like, you know, and she hears about Bad Bunny doing the Super Bowl, so she's like, I'm gonna make a bad bunny puppet. And I'm like, what am I supposed to do with that? Yeah, but I don't really reference them in that way. It's anyway. So I start shooting it, I get my wife.
SPEAKER_01:Again, that's an Easter egg for that is a massive Easter.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, there's a ton of Easter eggs and stuff in there.
SPEAKER_01:I didn't even know that until right now. I don't think you told me that.
SPEAKER_03:No. Um and then the other thing is I wanted to shoot it on the phone. I have never I I I love the phones. I have a very nice camera that I've shot a lot of our other videos on. But this one I wanted to see if I could get a if I could pull it off in the way that I wanted to pull it off and be really kinetic and do a lot of movements. And also, I'm gonna be animating one of the puppets and holding the camera in my hand to get some of the movements and shots, particularly in the the shots of the band. So the entire video is shot on an iPhone, a new iPhone, um, which I thought was really good. It held up and did really great. It it definitely pulled off. Yes, max plus plus plus. Pro pro maximum pro yes, maximus plus plus plus. The pro maximus plus plus plus, yeah. Yeah, um, nevertheless, I shot on that because I just wanted to see if I could really pull it off, and I knew if I couldn't, I could go back to the cameras. So I put it all up and then I start editing it, and it it literally came together pretty quickly. Like it was not um super difficult because I had a good idea sort of in my head of how the whole thing is gonna play out. Like I send you a version of it when I'm pretty close to being done, and you're like, hey, here's a couple notes. Um I think we should have more things to kind of poke fun at. And I really think it would be really cool if somehow or another what the band of you watching on TV comes through the television, like the ring, like thinking about the girl coming out of the TV, you know, and literally comes into the living room, and I'm like, oh you sob. How am I supposed to do that, man? I just shot this whole thing. How am I gonna figure this out?
SPEAKER_01:So I had to because for those of you who don't know me, I can't just keep my mouth shut, which I should most of the time. No, thank God you shouldn't, though. I think it was a really great idea. I always have something to say. No, it was good. I always feel bad about it because it creates more work, but man, I how the whole that one shot, I hope people watch the video and I hope that they see the shot of the character coming through the TV because it's it's amazing. It's so crazy. It's really cool. It's so crazy. It's cool. Uh but it looks awesome.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I I um but in in tandem of doing that, I also do uh a puppet commercial for Ozympic. Yeah, which is just and another stupid video called for a law firm called Puppet Law, you know, pulling the strings of justice one puppet at a time, which you can't even read on there, but I went so far as to creating that.
SPEAKER_01:So just in case um but I love the whole uh the whole sales page of like, do you want to sue someone for no reason at all?
SPEAKER_03:For absolutely no reason at all, yeah.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_03:But those are the things that we're those are the things we're trying to kind of poke fun at a little bit. Anyway, it's by far the best video I've ever done, and that's a tall order giving that that some of our videos I've really enjoyed. Like Fear on High was a really fun video for me just because I love horror films so much, and I wanted to do something that was kind of uh like a short film, not a not a band thing. And this one though, just from the sense that it was such a family affair for the three of us to get to do something like that together, which never happens. And it was a fun subject matter. I love the song, it wasn't five minutes long, so I could kind of pull this off without having to rethink and build new sets and all this kind of stuff to fill up five minutes of video. Um, it was really fun, and I and then being able to spend some time, some of the promos even are gonna be really funny. You know, I involve a close friend of mine who's always fashioned himself to be a comedian, and he does some funny, some really funny uh voiceover work that of course is just um you know ribbon some of uh some great musicians and stuff out there kind of plugging our video before it comes out. But the point is, whenever you see this, hopefully when you see it, probably the video is already posted at that point, but um we're incredibly honored and excited to get to share this with you. It's a fun video. Um I really had just an incredible time doing it, and it was a fun challenge. So I think as we continue to keep doing these, we're gonna keep challenging each other to do things different than we've ever done before. And um I have another one planned. Not that I want to be Jim Henson or anything of the sort. Uh God help us. But I do have another one down the road that um we've already kind of started to put together some initial things for, which is gonna be really fun for another song on the record down the road. Uh totally different puppets and things, but um we may see another one of these come up in the future that'll be a bit different uh than this one, but nevertheless, um a fun thing and certainly a great thing that I got to do with my family. So for that alone, I just really uh I hope everyone loves it. I think you will. It's it's so adorable and funny and and silly and but also with a with a smart message that's just hey, slow down on some of the stuff that you ingest every day. It too much of it can be unhealthy, you know.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, follow your own compass, don't just follow what other people tell you. Um and everything these days is vying for our attention, but yeah, but yeah, I mean, amazing job on the video. I I think it really is so cool, and it's such an unconventional idea. Uh it's a bit of a risk. Um because I think some people will probably see it and have no idea what to do with it. Like, what in the absolute hell are you doing? What am I saying here? Yeah. Um, but but I love that about it, and I love the uh just the audacity.
SPEAKER_03:Uh oh, your puppet has a massive swagger to him as well. It's like there's some head nods and stuff in there. There's some funny angles that I did with your puppet that is just amazing to me that it's like you're a full Liam Gallagher attitude. It's like I was trying, like the one thing that I really wanted to do, and I never did, but I really thought it would have been funny is that there was some place where I was gonna put up a piece of glass, and I never figured out how I could get it to happen. I would have had to have fixed something in the puppet's mouth where it would look like he was spitting at the camera, you know, like you've seen all these punk rock videos, you know, where he's like, Yeah, and the and the hits the hits the camera and the water's dripping on the lens. Yeah, and I'm like, God, I can't figure out how I could have pulled that off. But that was the one and only thing that I was like some of those little squirt guns or something.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, just something stupid.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I I mean, there's so much to that, and I'm sure we'll talk about it again after people have had a chance to digest it. But um, by this point or by the time you hear the podcast, it's out. So we hope that you love it. We hope that you don't uh get offended by it. And if you do, we're sorry, but don't take it too seriously, you know.
SPEAKER_01:I'm not gonna lie, I don't I don't care if you get offended by it. Um and I I don't I don't mean that to be contentious or antagonistic. I just don't care. Um I think I think if it pushes your buttons, then maybe there's some self-evaluation to do there.
SPEAKER_03:Good comedy does that, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I mean the the point is just to say what what I said earlier, really, which is like follow your own compass and don't get suckered into what other people want to manipulate you into doing or thinking. And that could be pharmaceuticals, that could be uh reality TV, that could be politics, that could be music, that could be people like you and I, right? It's like have your own opinion. Um and uh football's in full swing in your household, isn't it? Sounds like well, it's certainly not our bills. Um uh yeah, been a yeah kind of a uncomfortable season for the Bills so far. That was a very uncomfortable game, yes. Um but yeah, anyway, I I I think that people will like it. I think people will get the idea, and again, you know, we're we're not trying to be intentionally um uh provocative, you know, but I think what what we're trying to say is something that needs people need to be reminded of. It's like yeah, the the world that exists within your phone is not the real world. The world that exists in your TV is not the real world, the real world exists with real people. So experience that and make that more important than everyone who's trying to vie for your attention and who's trying to sell you a narrative or a thought or a product or whatever, and make your own decisions and try to think things through and try to be a good person, you know, and and try not to fall victim to everything that's happening in our world right now. I mean, it's getting increasingly more and more difficult to tell what's real and what's not real. Yes. And I I'm starting to feel like the old person now because like I remember it wasn't that long ago that it was like parents showing you something on Facebook. Oh my god, did you see this thing? And I'm looking at it and I'm going, that's clearly fake. Like that's not real at all. Like, that's not even a real website. Like, this is total bogus. Like, what are you getting all worked up about? It was like so obvious to me how fake it was. And now it's like every couple of weeks I show something to my wife, like, oh my god, did you see this? And she's and she'll see, like, oh, that's AI.
SPEAKER_00:AI.
SPEAKER_01:I'm like, God, if I had spent like two more seconds looking at it, I would have recognized it as AI, but I got caught off guard and I got suckered. I totally got suckered by it. Yeah. And so uh, you know, I hope that people that are younger than me are gonna have better AI detection because I'm I'm kind of starting to get to the point where I'm having a hard time with some of it. But but that point remains, it's like everything is there to try to uh convince you of something, right? And and it could be a right something or a wrong something. You know, again, I'm not taking a a stance, but the truth is that you have to figure things out for yourself. So, you know, don't don't follow uh toxic heroes, don't follow false idols, um, be careful about where you invest your time and your energy and your emotions and your headspace and all of that. It's like um take care of the things that are most important, which is yourself, because you can't do anything for anybody else if you don't take care of yourself, right? And then take care of the people that are around you, right? Um, the world, we may be getting sold, the whole world's falling apart, and maybe it is. But also maybe if we all just take care of our communities and our families, then maybe everything gets a little bit better. We don't have to worry about the global scale of things all the time. Um just some thoughts.
SPEAKER_03:Just pipe down, pipe down, hippie. Yeah, I know. No, we kid, we can't, but it's actually true, and that's that's exactly how we feel, and that's how I feel about it as well. I know I said that earlier about if it pushes your buttons, good. Maybe that's what you need. Um, but it's a puppet video for God's sake. So just take it for what it is, enjoy it. Yeah, have fun. It's my mom, my wife, and I had an incredible time being able to do that, and uh it's gonna it's definitely something I'm super proud of. Um, I did put in the credits, which I think is really hysterical. And for all of you though, obviously you know we love Metallica. So being able to, and my wife is a big Metallica fan as well. Um I loved being able to. To give her credit of Master of Puppets. I thought, yeah, what a great way to give her a credit for the for the video. It was calling her Master Puppets. I thought it was genius. That's my own cleverness, you know. Nevertheless. Well, that should wrap us for today. Boy, if you stayed here and didn't fall asleep, thank you so much. Um, this is a good one for us. We covered a lot of ground today.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we appreciate you. Um, the channel is slowly growing. Uh, we're getting more and more listeners as we go. Uh, we appreciate each and every one of you and are excited to continue to make stuff like this. If you have ideas for the show, you want to be on the show, you you think you'd be a good guest, or you know a good guest, um, you know, we we're getting the ball rolling with that, and we've got uh a few more guests planned uh to come up here soon. Um yeah, uh we have our website and social media, so uh feel free to contact us on there, um, check more stuff out. We have, of course, our band, which we've been talking about uh with this music video, but our band is the silver echo. Um, our newest album came out uh earlier this year and is doing incredibly well, better than anything that we have ever done, which is so encouraging and cool. And so thank you to everyone who's checked that out.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, so you can find us at the Silver Echo pretty much anywhere. Uh and our website is awesome, so you can find all kinds of cool stuff on there. Uh yeah, yeah, that's all we have for you today. Thank you so much. We appreciate you, and we will see you on the next episode of the Sonic Alchemy.
SPEAKER_03:Take care, y'all. Support local music. We out of here.
SPEAKER_01:Peace.