The Sonic Alchemy
Welcome to Sonic Alchemy, the ultimate podcast for creatives looking to elevate their craft and gain insider insights into the world of artistry. Hosted by Justin Webster and Kevin Crouch of the band The Silver Echo, this engaging show provides a dynamic platform to showcase artists and delve into the myriad skills and layers that contribute to a successful creative career.
Each episode of Sonic Alchemy offers a blend of captivating interviews and insightful discussions. Our interviews feature a diverse array of artists who share their unique journeys, techniques, and sources of inspiration. These conversations provide listeners with a rare glimpse into the personal and professional experiences that shape creative success.
In addition to interviews, Justin and Kevin host thought-provoking discussions on various topics relevant to creatives. These episodes explore everything from honing specific skills and overcoming creative blocks to navigating the business side of art and staying inspired in a rapidly changing world.
Discover how successful artists overcome challenges and find their voice.
Gain practical advice on developing skills, managing a creative career, and staying motivated.
Connect with a community of passionate creatives who are dedicated to their craft.
Sonic Alchemy is more than a podcast; it's a journey into the heart of creativity. Join Justin and Kevin as they uncover the alchemical process that turns passion into artistry and artistry into success. Whether you're an aspiring artist or an established creator, Sonic Alchemy offers the insights and inspiration you need to thrive.
Tune in and transform your creative potential into gold with Sonic Alchemy!
The Sonic Alchemy
Our First Guest! Joe White on creative process, tone, emotion and Instrumental mastery
The moment we welcomed our first guest, the conversation hit a groove—Joe White opened up about building instrumental songs that sing without a vocalist, guided by rhythm, melody, and honest emotion. He traces his path from piano lessons and seventh-grade guitar to drumline intensity and classical study, showing how those hours with the click shaped his sense of pocket, cadence, and phrasing. If you’ve ever wondered how an instrumental track can feel like a chorus you want to belt, Joe breaks down the craft: recurring motifs, chorus-like sections, and tension-and-release arcs that carry weight even without words.
We also get real about why we listen the way we do. Joe shares how mood often picks the playlist—sadness seeks sad songs, heaviness comforts anger—and how the right line or melody can translate feelings we struggle to name. From Dayseeker’s lyrical precision to the catharsis of heavier bands, we explore how emotion and arrangement meet. Then it’s a tour through modern instrumental influences: Steve Vai and Satriani to Andy McKee’s harmonic depth, onward to Intervals, Animals as Leaders, CHON, and David Maxim Micic. Joe’s take on social media guitar is refreshingly honest—yes, there’s quirky production and attention-grabbing bits, but intention and structure still win—and he calls out the tired online habit of dismissing women players, pushing for a more respectful audience culture.
Gear lovers, you’re fed. Joe records with Neural DSP—mainly Archetype: Gojira for articulate, spanky weight—and keeps bass streamlined with Parallax. Live, he trusts Fractal for reliability. We dive into his Aristides guitars, why composite consistency matters, and how pickup choices (Bare Knuckle, Fishman) create tonal variety without endless tweaking. Along the way, we talk collaboration, protecting fragile ideas, and learning to ignore the “fastest ever” trap. You don’t have to shred the most to be felt the most—if the melody’s strong and the rhythm speaks, the song will carry.
If you enjoyed the conversation, follow and subscribe for more deep dives into songwriting, tone, and creative process. Share the episode with a friend who loves instrumental music, and leave a review to help others find the show—what part resonated with you most?
Learn more about The Silver Echo at thesilverecho.com
What is up, dude?
SPEAKER_02:What's up, my guy?
SPEAKER_00:Can I just cordially, well, I guess say thank you and welcome you as our very first guest that we have ever had on this podcast. I think this is episode 10, if I'm remembering right. Our first guest. We have plans for many more, but I'm super excited to have you here and very thankful that you said yes to come hang out. Um also bummed that Kevin can't make it. So he uh yeah, he got stuck at work, he's stuck at the day job. So he may be able to jump in here at some point, but for now you're stuck with me. How you doing, man?
SPEAKER_02:Uh not too bad. Uh life has been pretty good. Um I mean, well, for starters, hugely appreciate you guys having me on. Um I was I was surprised uh when you asked me to be on this. Because I listen to podcasts. Yeah, I was. Um because I listen to podcasts a lot, and I've I've thought about what it would be like to be a guest on a podcast. Yeah. And then all of a sudden you hit me up. I'm like, yo, what? Um you put it out in the universe, it came back to you. Yeah, um, I'm honored, truly. Um, but life has been good. Uh this year has been uh it's had its ups and downs for sure. Um, but it's been pretty good amount of self-discovery. Um, I think you and I have talked about some stuff uh kind of just throughout the year. But uh but it's been good. Um got a lot of good friends around me, a lot of good people around me.
SPEAKER_00:So that's awesome, man. It's been fun. You're doing a lot of really good music. Uh I've been loving your Instagram stuff. That's been really inspiring to me. And like the amount that you put out is pretty crazy. Like, I've noticed I feel like you have a pretty good schedule now. Like, I can count on stuff from you at least every Monday. I feel like I see a video. Yeah. Um, and uh like just off camera a minute ago, we were talking about like how you you've been shooting your stuff. Um, you got me now. I'm gonna forget their name. Is it Day Seeker? Yeah, Day Seeker. Day Seeker. Yeah, you've been doing some cover videos of their stuff, which is super sick. Everyone should go check that out. But you definitely got me hooked on that band, and I didn't realize that quite a few of the songs that you put in, because you sent me a playlist like I don't know, two weeks ago, something like that. Uh I didn't realize like a couple of those songs that I really liked are from a new upcoming album. And so uh I've been listening to like whatever's you know current on that new one. Um, that band is really good. Yeah, so I appreciate you turning me out of there.
SPEAKER_02:I love Day Seeker, man. Uh, I legit have nothing bad to say about that band. Um they're they're one of my favorite bands, and I've been listening to them for a while. And I don't know if you're similar to me in this regard, but I like always hop around in different things for what I'm listening to. Um like Jean Buddha. But I've been listening, yeah. Uh, but I've been listening to Day Seeker for probably like the past month and just been like really diving into it and just loving every moment of it, dude. I love that band.
SPEAKER_00:How did you find that band? Like, did someone turn you on to them or um yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Uh so I was with a friend, and I remember they showed me or they told told me about their song Neon Grave, and they sent me the link for the music video, and I watched the music video for it, and I just fell in love with it. Like the sound of the song, the overall look of the band and the aesthetic that they had at the time, uh, and just the sound uh was something that something that I just really liked and kind of just shot off from there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I was kind of uh a little bit taken by surprise when I saw you put up a video of you playing one of their tunes, and then you sent me the playlist because I feel like we had just been talking about how like the heavier music was something that was like I wouldn't say that you're not feeling it anymore, but like we we both have had our kind of ups and downs with the metal genre and whatnot. And so I was like, oh, interesting that he this is a band that he's into right now, and then I listen to it and I go, okay, yeah, it's heavy and it's guitar music, but also it's so vocal forward and melodic. And I wouldn't say that it's poppy because that's not exactly right. But uh it once I listen to it a little bit more, I totally got it. Because I'm like, yeah, this has this is like dressed up like a metal band, but it's there's a lot more going on with it, especially in the vocal arrangements and all that. So, all right, um, let's introduce you a little bit uh for people who don't know who you are, and my seat is not cooperating with me. Um, yeah, I I figured we could we could do like uh have you kind of introduce yourself um and uh like any of the projects that uh you want to be associated with right now, I think that'd be really cool. And then, you know, I've known you since high school pretty much. Um but it occurred to me in prepping for this that I don't necessarily know your full background with music. So maybe that's kind of where we can start off today. Um, and just you know how you found your way to the guitar, and you're not just a guitar player, you are a multi-instrumentalist, and you have uh, you know, a pretty diverse background musically. And so I I got really curious in where that came from. Like, are you a phenom who just kind of picked up out of nowhere in your family? Or, you know, is it like uh, you know, grew up around a bunch of talented people um that for some reason you haven't introduced me to? Uh but yeah, yeah, I'll let you kind of take over for a second, just uh yeah, tell tell everyone who you are, where they can find you, and what you're up to.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Uh so it all started the day I was born.
SPEAKER_02:Uh there it is. Um my name, Joseph White. Uh, I go by Joe White Guy on all of my socials, which somehow I don't know how I've been able to keep that, but it's just worked. Um so I started I started uh years ago. My mom, so my mom used to play uh with some friends at convalescent homes where they would play just like old school hymns. Uh and I remember one day in particular, I was with her at this convalescent home in Merced, and I was playing, I was huge into Pokemon as a kid, and I was always playing it. So I was just sitting there like way in the back, just minding my own business, playing Pokemon, and they were playing something, I don't remember what it was, but for whatever reason it just caught my ear, and it kind of just stuck with me on the drive home. And I think either later that day or maybe a couple days later, I asked my mom, I was like, Hey, can you like show me some of the stuff that you were doing? And she showed me like three chords, which which I think were probably G, C, and D. And the rest just kind of shot off from there. Um after just diving headfirst.
SPEAKER_00:You would say that like piano was your first instrument then?
SPEAKER_02:Uh actually, technically, yeah. Um I had piano lessons for six months. I think it was about six months uh when I was younger from my cousin's wife, um, where which is where I like learned to actually read music. Okay. Uh, and then there was a number of years between that and when I started playing guitar that I just never did anything with it. Um but oh yeah, music is that's interesting.
SPEAKER_00:So you kind of like started on piano and then dropped off of music as a in general until what, like probably high school? Something like that?
SPEAKER_02:Um, so this was in probably seventh grade that I started learning guitar, like really learning guitar. Yeah, I want to say it's in seventh grade. Because I remember I met so I was in seventh grade, and then I met my friend Brandon Hawthorne, uh, who I would later end up joining with him. Well, at a later date, but joining his band, We Sunk the Mayflower, uh, and doing that whole thing in high school. But I met him, and then through him, I met uh this guy, Chris Armbrister, who uh who showed me Trivium and got me super into that. Um, and then with Brandon, learned a bunch of events. Hey, hell yeah, let's go. Okay, gotta keep the old man metal alive, dude. Yeah. And then with Brandon, ended up learning a bunch of like Avenged Sevenfold stuff uh as I lay dying, you know, like kind of the typical stuff that we would listen to back at that time.
SPEAKER_00:2000 metal.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um kill switch engage, of course. Yeah. And then in like seventh grade, I think it was, I remember meeting these guys. Uh man, I can't remember his last name, but Evan, uh, Enrique and Nick, who Evan and Enrique would also later be in We Sunk the Mayflower. And I remember at one point, I was just, I think I was with Brandon, and we were walking across the uh not the field, but a part of the field where there were a bunch of tables, and they were just like hanging out playing Hotel California and just like singing and playing it, and it was just it was just so cool, man. Um and that kind of like helped push me to want to do more and learn more because I was like, these guys were having fun and they're playing so well. I want to do that. Um and then yeah, and then in high school, my junior year. Well, let me go back a little bit. Uh, freshman year in high school, I started doing like drums, uh, playing snare primarily, um, did a little bit of bass, and then junior year ended up joining We Sunk the Mayflower, and then I also did drumline their well, over in Merced, I joined their winter program with a couple of friends of mine junior and senior year, which is where I learned like a lot of WGI and DCI stuff. Um, a lot of the more like I guess complex stuff in that regard. And then after I graduated, a little bit after I graduated high school, uh, things kind of fell off with We Sunk the Mayflower, and then Brandon and I started writing our own stuff, which was a lot more of the like gent kind of thing, uh, which really never went anywhere. Um, but it was just kind of, I guess, a passion product for us. And then fast forward to finishing up stuff over at Merced College. Um, well, I started learning classical guitar there and learning a lot more like theory-based kind of stuff. And then I transferred over to Fresno State and study classical guitar performance there and get a lot more familiar with that. And moved to Fresno, end up living with a buddy of mine who I had met in Merced. And uh yeah, he and I just kind of took off, like kind of not comparing each other, but just competing against each other a little bit, um, which was a lot of fun. Um, yeah, yeah, the good kind of competition. Um and then while I was going to school for that, I joined a band called Midnight Avocados, which was kind of like I guess jazz rock kind of thing. Um how can I explain this? I guess something kind of like dance gavin dance a little bit, but not as like um not as hectic, I guess.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Um but that was a lot of fun, and then that's I had met Bradford prior to that, but got a lot more familiar with him through that. And then things with that fell apart, and then now here we are with what's now MBU essence used to be Prog Dog. Um while I was in Midnight, I was gonna ask about that. Yeah, I'm glad you're in Midnight.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_02:Uh while I was in Midnight Avocados, I had been writing stuff for myself just because I wanted to dive more into that and get more into the like arranging, I guess, producing recording side of it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And after things with that fell apart, I hit up Radford. I was like, hey, I've got all this work. You want to do something with it? And he was like, Yeah, fuck it, let's go. Uh so we did stuff with it, and then we got uh our friend Ronnie at the time, he played bass, and he brought in this guy, Eric Beltran, who is now our drummer. Uh, and we just started learning the material, uh playing shows, and then kind of just took off from there a little bit.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and uh you guys had a pretty recent record which is super cool, so people should totally check that out, especially, you know, anyone who's into like instrumental music and you know, things that are I wouldn't I wouldn't probably say, and correct me if you think of it differently, that it's like way out there progressive. Um the song structures are pretty comfortable for the most part. Like I didn't feel like there was anything that uh challenged me in a way that made me uncomfortable. But I've also listened to a lot of like like uh instrumental music, but uh it it's like it's definitely progressive music, um, but very like enjoyable to listen to. And it's not uh like some instrumental music to me can get a little bit um just challenging, you know? Like you're hearing the musicianship more than you're hearing a song sometimes. And uh at least when I listen to your record, I hear a lot of melody built into the things that you write, which is really cool to me. As someone who listens mostly to not instrumental music, and I'm used to hearing a vocalist and a melody, it's nice to be able to hear those out and then hear a solo section, and then hear something that feels um familiar in a way.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I would say like as far as at least with this last record that we put out, um it was I didn't think necessarily so much about structure, but I tried to there were definitely elements of like, okay, this feels more like a versed kind of section, this feels more like a chorus kind of section to me. Um, and I tried to kind of I guess think about it that way, or navigate the song structure for certain songs through that lens and kind of like lead it where I wanted it to go, but in a way that it didn't feel forced, but it felt kind of more natural and like easier to go into it. Um, and with what you said about there being melody kind of baked into things, um I've definitely been, especially with learning classical music, I've definitely been more of a melodic player, and I tend to think more melodically, especially now. Um, but that's I'm glad to hear that you felt that there's a lot of melody baked into that. Uh that's nice because I love a good melody. Um, and I don't know how often you've listened to it, but there are repeating themes throughout that record, mainly two of them, um, and in like slightly different variations, but there's definitely like one main theme that I wanted to have throughout that record to kind of help tie everything in together.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Uh, which you hear, I think. Uh in the first song. I don't remember what I wrote, but uh, I think it's in the first song. Uh yeah, it's in the first song, and then it's also I want to say in the last song as well. Yeah. Because I'm thinking I'm thinking set order for what we play.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But it's very different from like record order of songs.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I could not tell you the order of songs on any album I've ever put out. I I feel like I I listen to them in different sequences before it comes out to try to get an idea of like what kind of order I want. I never remember what it ends up being. That's that's impossible. So, okay, so let's let's pause there for a second. I want to go back a little bit to your background in music. So I find it interesting that you play drums. And I'm wondering, you know, that's gotta play a pretty important role in maybe how you construct or think about music or think about rhythms. Um obviously completely different style of music doing um you know, like band type music versus, you know, like for example, the record that you just put out. But how do you feel that the drumming background uh influences or plays a role or does it at all? Do you do you even think that way when you're writing and uh on guitar or something like that?
SPEAKER_02:Um as far as with my playing on guitar, uh somewhat, yeah. I mainly I mainly think about like rhythmic cadences. Um things that would be at least in my mind that would be either stronger or weaker depending on like the section that I'm going into or where in the song I am at that point. Um that's probably the main thing that I think doing drumline in high school has contributed to what I do now. Uh also being able to play to a click, um, and probably honestly to a point to where it feels uncomfortable to play without a click at this point, slightly. Um because you know, like having like 12-hour rehearsals with the click just pounding in your ears like all day long almost, uh, you get very accustomed to having that almost, I guess, is like a crutch. Um, but I mean with what we do, like we have backing tracks and click in our ears all the time.
SPEAKER_00:Um so it's it's a part of life as a as a musician. I mean, if you can't if you can't play with the clique, that's a problem. And then for most situations, you're gonna need to be able to play with it. So it makes sense to sort of like become friends with the clique, you know, as opposed to fighting with it, you know.
SPEAKER_02:As some people refer to the clique as God.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um But yeah, I would say probably the biggest thing that I've taken from doing drumline in high school is just uh being comfortable with understanding where rhythm should lie, playing to a clique and like rhythmic cadences for what I do at this uh or the kind of music that I write. Since there's no vocals, a lot of it is rhythm, melody, and harmony. And that's kind of the basically it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because I mean I think about like the amount of syncopation that is in a lot of modern guitar music, um, certainly like in the kind of stuff that you do. And I think to myself, man, this must give you an upper hand to have a background in it at least, to where even if you're not thinking of it consciously, you're probably have a comfort with that sort of thing that perhaps I I may not have. Like I'm pretty decent at uh like programming drums and understanding sort of what I feel like is gonna work, but I I'm definitely not a drummer and I don't have that um I I don't know that uh technical knowledge of rhythm only goes so far, you know. So I get by a lot on feel where I feel like you know someone who's who's got the muscle memory and who's put in the time to really get the technique uh definitely has a leg up on me.
SPEAKER_02:So um oh go ahead, please. Sorry, go ahead. Oh, well I was just gonna say, uh yeah, I would agree with that. Um I try not to think too technically, uh, at least as far as like writing drum parts, uh, because I know Eric will hate me at some point. Um because the body of work that we released before uh the last record that we did, um which was Memories of a Life, uh the la the body of work before that, which is an EP called Remain, that was like that wasn't an extremely ambitious body of work to do. Uh, because it was just it's kind of like rift salad in a sense, but not so much rift salad. Um it's a lot of like complex ideas and fast stuff and a lot of kind of weird rhythmic things happening. Um and we did a music video for the song Remain from that EP. And it like, excuse me, at the time that we recorded the music video, not all of us were familiar with the song or like as familiar as I would say, I guess we should have been. So trying to find uh kind of creative ways to get around that uh and be kind of sneaky. But yeah, I mean the song itself, I mean, not to discredit like Eric or Bradford or anything, but because the song itself is just hard, especially for Eric. Um but yeah, that was that was a really technical body of work that uh that we did, and I realize I'm rambling at this point. Uh no, no, no. But uh yeah, for the drums part of it, I do think I guess rudimentally at times, um and also kind of in contrast with like other things that I hear within the kind of genre I guess I'm working with for that particular song that I'm writing, or just kind of what I know Eric can do, or what feels good to me in that moment, which is kind of funny to think about because like does a kick feel good in that moment, or does like a floor tom feel good in that moment? You know, like when you put it from that perspective, it's like why why even the hot? But I don't know. I'm the kind of person that like that stuff sometimes like really matters.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it can be, it can be. I I do, yeah, yeah, I'm with you on that. I think the the question is valid because if you don't take the time to explore those things, then probably what you'll end up doing is something that I've done a lot. Like I I got in a pretty bad habit of uh I'm trying to come up with that write an idea. I have an idea on guitar most of the time, is where my ideas come from. Have an idea for guitar. I need something to accompany it to be able to present it to Kevin or whoever and say, like, let's develop this, but I don't want to give it it's just it it's not enough context to give just a guitar idea. Um there are too many, too many blank spaces for your mind to fill in, like, how should I even be interpreting this? Um and so then uh you know, I'll go in and I'll make something that is pretty basic to accompany it just so that no one feels obligated that like this is how it needs to stay. You know? Yeah. So it's like, yeah, make it your own thing. Um, but then in doing that, sometimes the song gets pretty far along before we actually go back and work on those details. And it's like, oh yeah, this this could use some love, and maybe asking some of those deeper questions about like how should this feel and how should this be articulated on a drum kit? Um yeah, those those questions definitely need to get asked.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah, especially for especially for having like a human drummer, because I like we've always programmed our stuff, and that's just it's just easiest for all of us, uh, because recording drums in a studio is expensive. Um so it's extremely convenient, especially with like sending ideas back and forth and getting input from everyone and changing things kind of on the fly. Um, but I will like as I'm writing something, I will just go through and like program the parts um and just pencil everything in and get it to where like what in my mind sounds good at that moment, and then just like send it off to the guys, but like, hey, what do you think about this? And then whatever feedback they have, um change that. But I realize I also kind of have a slight issue with getting married to parts, so to speak. Um because I'll like I'll write this whole thing and like have as much context as I can for it at that point in time, and then I'll be done with it and I'll be like, yeah, this is fucking sick. And then I'll get something from like one of the guys, and I'm like, uh, I don't want to change it now. I like it. But yeah, reeling that back and just being like, okay, this isn't like strictly all about me, you know, this isn't like even though I guess I'm kind of a main guy, so to speak, this isn't like a Joe White and friend show. It's all of us.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, how how do you balance that? I mean, I I'm sure it's different for every band and every project, you know. Uh, but how how do you balance being like one of the primary writers within taking input and sort of allowing things to evolve into something else? You know, you're alluding to it a little bit there. Obviously, it can be challenging at times. Um do you uh do you invite any and all like criticism of parts or new ideas or fresh takes? Or do you find that to keep things on the rails you have to have some level of guardianship? Like what does that look like for you?
SPEAKER_02:Um well, because I try to basically from like start to finish, I will basically like come up with an idea, flush it out as much as I can, uh, send it off to the guys, whatever input they have. I'm open to whatever input they have. Um in my mind, so long as it kind of makes sense with the song or with that body of work. Um, if it's something that like is too out there, which I mean rarely happens as it is, um I might try it just to you know see what it sounds like. But I'm with the guys, I've been open to pretty much any and all input that they would have, or that they have had rather. Uh, and then getting to a point to where we're all happy with the song, we all like what we're hearing, and then basically kind of closing it at that point, just thinking, okay, this song is done, we're ready to do whatever with it. I didn't well send it off to be mixed and mastered or write more kind of in this vein, or kind of branching off from that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's interesting. So, like, is it the sort of thing where you're intentionally trying to get their feedback to evolve ideas, or is it sort of like, hey, if you got something, let me know. If not, we just move forward with this. Uh it's a little bit of both.
SPEAKER_02:Um, because there, I mean, there are times where I've definitely been stuck and I'm like, what the hell do I? Do next, like I don't know where to take this. Uh, so I'd reach out to him and I'm like, hey, here's this thing I've got. Like, please send help. Um, but there are other times where I've got like this whole thing, and I like to me, I feel something, or I yeah, I feel something when I listen to it, and that's something that I feel is good, and I don't want to change it, and I just like where it's at in that moment. And I'll send it off to the guys. I'm like, hey, if you guys have any ideas for this, let me know. I'm pretty solid where it's at right now, or I'm pretty upset with where it's at right now. Um, but if you guys have any ideas, you know, let me know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. I I I can relate to that too, because I feel like most of the time when I write something, I kind of like I get really excited by the idea of a song going somewhere that I didn't expect it to go. Like there's something that's really fun about the process of like, I don't know, the yeah, just that process of someone else's brain hearing what you're hearing and then doing something that you're not expecting them to do. And then it sounds way cooler than what you thought it was gonna sound like. Now it's a gamble because it doesn't always turn out that way, but but I'm kind of addicted to that process a little bit where I'm I'm always hoping that will happen, you know, and like I'll have a plan B, you know. Uh, but at the same time, there there have been times where I've written something where I'm like, yeah, I just really don't want anyone to change any of this. Yeah, I think this is really cool, and maybe I'm wrong, and hopefully you can learn to love it. But uh I think this is pretty great. Yeah. Yeah, that's funny. Um, so you you kind of alluded to something that I also wanted to get into, which is this whole idea of uh, you know, you you mentioned if you have an idea and it makes you feel something, then you might want to really try to protect that idea or at least whatever makes that idea give you that feeling. How do you know, or like this is like the impossible question to answer, probably, but but rip on it and give me your thoughts. Um because I've never found a very good way to explain it myself, but I I have something similar where like sometimes I'll write an idea, and like there are especially two songs that are on our newest album that's about to come out, or probably by the time that this is out that the record will be out. But where the songs, um, you know, Kevin, of course, was my co-writer, and then our mutual friend Michael played drums on the whole record. And uh so he was tied in throughout the whole writing process um and really helped us out a lot in that department. And so there were two songs that I was convinced these songs are really cool, and they weren't finished enough to be really cool already, but like I somehow had a sense about them that they needed to be finished, and the other two guys were kind of like, meh, yeah, I mean, all right. Yeah, I mean, or or going, oh yeah, I keep forgetting that we have that song that we have to finish. I'm going, no, you guys, you don't get it. Like, there's something about this that's gonna be really good. And it kind of took me a while to crack it, and uh, and then I I felt vindicated by the end of the process because you know that it did turn out to be, you know, cool tunes. But like for you, um it is is there a uh theme or an element or like what how do you know when you've stumbled on a good idea or when you have like is it purely an intuition thing?
SPEAKER_02:Uh I guess that is kind of the impossible question because in my opinion, and I'm sure a lot of people are probably gonna echo this, but when you know you stumbled across something solid, it's gonna be different for every person. Um what I think may be really cool or I'm like hyped about, you may not think so, and vice versa. Um for me personally, when I feel like I have stumbled across or written something that I feel is like, yeah, this is solid, like I feel really good about this. Um I'll just be able to listen to it and not have not necessarily complaints, but I'll listen to it and feel just feel good. Um and not feel like anything is missing for the song for that particular song. Um because like so, for example, um our song Leave the Lights On from our last well, our last body of work. Um that was one that was inspired by this guy named Joey Bircham, who's also in Nashville. Um dude is a homie, and I absolutely love that guy. Um I started writing that song because I was inspired by one of his posts uh like a while back. Uh, and then that kind of just evolved into its whole thing. And Atticus and I, who used to be the bassists in our band, uh, we were sitting down writing through it and got the like chorus part of it written and kind of set the song up in a way to where it's like intro versus, chorus, verse, chorus, and then there's like an interlude kind of thing. Um very chill, and then like chorus comes back in, it's just this huge thing, and then at the end of it, it transitions into this outro to where like everything is just kind of released, and it's just big, open, and it's like all of this tension kind of building up, and then it's all just dropped, and it's like okay, like here it is. Um, which is I guess ironically enough, um kind of reminiscent for me. Um but yeah, I think the emotional response, like whenever I have a good emotional response to something that I've written it's good.
SPEAKER_00:Does that emotional response need to be positive emotion?
SPEAKER_02:That's a good question. Um does it need to be positive emotion? I suppose it doesn't need to be. Um Damn, that's a really good question. I honestly don't know. Uh because I guess like it would be I guess it could be ideal if it was always a positive emotion, but excuse me. Um I mean it can be a negative emotion. Well, no, okay, I'm gonna go with no. Um because there are there are times when I listen to some of the songs off of Memories of a Life, and there's one there's one moment in particular uh in the song Napoleon that I don't think anyone has heard, but I know is there. Uh A because I've listened to the stems, but also just because through listening to the stems, now I can hear it in the song. Um that it's kind of like it's not a positive emotion, and I guess it's not necessarily like a specifically negative emotion either, but it's just something that like I guess for lack of a better way to phrase it or explain it, is more like serious for me. It's like I kind of just walk in. Um but nah, I don't think it has to always be a positive emotion that you feel. Um, because I mean listening to bands like Knock Loose or Lorna Shore uh bands like that, or traitors even, um, I mean you're probably not gonna feel like happy when you listen to them. Uh yeah. So I mean, I guess no, you don't have to feel a positive emotion whenever you listen to something to know that it's good. Yeah. Um, as a general sense.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean I would be inclined to agree with you on that. And it is interesting to think about, and it's almost like um sometimes it feels good to feel bad. Like there's an irony in that. Like sometimes it there's nothing better than feeling super sad listening to sad music. Um there's like a brother, you're telling me or or feeling really angry to something like super heavy and and uh um aggressive. Like uh I really love Fit for an Autopsy. And so a lot of their music, like especially two records ago. There's a couple songs on there. They have a song called The New Level of Hate that man, it gives me goosebumps every time. It's so heavy, it's so aggressive, and it's so angry, and it feels so good to feel like that sometimes. Um so yeah, there is a weird uh irony in that, I think. Um, and I I assume that's not just a musician thing, but I know that that's something that I become very familiar with, just having listened to so much music and having written so much music.
SPEAKER_02:You know, I feel like I guess kind of a tangent of that um would be uh the emotion that you're feeling at the time dictating the music that you're listening to that you listen to, which I guess would probably seem kind of obvious, but is not something like at the forefront of people's minds. Um that whatever motion emotion they're feeling before they listen to music, they're trying to reinforce that with the music that they listen to. If that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I remember I uh sorry, I was gonna say I remember that uh I did like an essay on that back in college. Uh, because it was never something that I thought about before. I was like, oh, I just I listen to music and then I feel this way. So surely it's the music that's making me feel this way. Whereas that's like not always the case. Uh and I talked to a number of professors in the music department over there. Uh, and a lot of it was, or a lot of the sentiment was not always. Like sometimes the emotion that you're already feeling dictates the music that you listen to, and then it kind of just perpetuates that emotion, uh, which I've I've realized has come to be the case pretty heavily for me. Um, especially when it comes to sad songs. Uh like listening to like movements, especially or Dayseeker. Um yeah, mainly just them. Uh not necessarily that I'm like feeling down or sad, it's just like I kind of want to like visit that emotion again and like say, hey, what's up? And then just like have a nice little talk with it and then come back, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you're connecting with that part of yourself. You know, that's so interesting. It like how you said that, because um, yeah, I think for me it's always been that second option, like the the way I feel drives what I want to listen to. And it makes me wonder because I'm totally the type of person where I I seek out music that reinforces how I'm feeling. Um, but it made me wonder, like, I wonder if there must be people out there who try to like prescribe an antidote to what they're feeling. So, like, if I'm feeling sad, I want to listen to happy music. I've never been that way. It never even occurred to me until we talked about this right now. But I I wonder if there are people like that, you know, who listen to the opposite kind of thing to balance themselves out. I guess you wouldn't try to make yourself sad if you're happy. So maybe it doesn't really make sense. But but uh I don't know. For me, it always felt like um not so much that I wanted to reinforce how I was feeling. Although maybe there, maybe there is some truth in that because maybe it feels good to feel like you're not alone. But I think it always helped like kind of externalize what I was feeling. Like, because I usually feel better. Like if I listen, if I'm sad and I listen to something sad, usually I feel better after that. Like I might not feel cured, but I don't feel as bad usually, especially if it's the right song in the right moment. Like, there's something very cathartic about that process, especially if you're in the car alone and you get to sing to it. Uh, or maybe that's just me. You're not alone.
SPEAKER_02:100% you're not alone.
SPEAKER_00:Or you know, no one's home and you're in the shower and you know, letting it rip. Um I've had many of those moments. But yeah, there's something about that that always felt um like it kind of separated me a little bit from those feelings, at least to help manage them a little better. And I don't know why that is, you know, like I said, maybe it's feeling like you're not the only one going through it, or maybe it's uh yeah, feeling like it's able to like somehow magically pull pull some of that out of you a little bit, um, or look at it as if it's outside of you. I say look at it, you know what I mean? Like listen to it, and yeah, you know, it becomes personified as this work of art as opposed to something that only exists inside of you. Uh that's interesting. I'm sure there are psychologists or whatever who could explain how that works, but it is fascinating.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I just I just play guitar.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know how it works.
SPEAKER_00:Come on, Dr. Joe.
SPEAKER_02:Um yeah, I I would agree with that. It's it's for me, it's always been like a cathartic release, uh, and kind of the a bit of the community aspect, and like I'm not alone in going through this, like someone else has gone through this too. So that I guess kind of like subconscious realization of okay, I'm not alone, I'm not the only person that's dealt with this, other people have dealt with it as well. But also like the big thing for me, I'm not a lyricist, like I don't write lyrics, I don't write poetry. I think it's really cool. But someone being able to phrase things uh a melodically, but also just being able to write lyrics in such a poetic and like beautiful way, um, especially with the way that like Rory does with Day Seeker. I'm probably gonna reference Day Seeker a lot, but that's all right, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's what's top of mind.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and the way that he writes a lot of his lyrics, it just I don't know, man. There's just something so beautiful and powerful about it for me. Uh, and it's just it just hits. Um, so being able to hear that and relate to it in a way, well, a understand it, but also relate to it in a way that's like, okay, I'm not alone in this. It's like it's kind of like having a good cry, but you're not crying. Yeah. Um, well, speak for yourself. Yeah, it's um, it's just it's like you said, it's cathartic.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I always found uh I I only feel like just sort of recently that I'm starting to hit a real stride with writing lyrics. I don't feel that I've necessarily have been terrible at it, but I I also can admit I've written a lot of lyrics that are kind of like a bit crude or not uh cheesy in moments, or you know, it's like kind of what I'm trying to say, but not quite there. But you know, you gotta move on and finish the song. And um, but I'll admit that like like how would I say it? Like, um, I think a lot of times, regardless of what it is that you're feeling, and it just so happens, I think a lot of times, what's most helpful for people are the more negative feelings that we go through. When we hear someone, you know, you hear the perfect line, and you're like, that's it, that's what I'm feeling. Like, I would not have been able to articulate it even to myself. But now I heard someone put it in this way, whether it's very poetic or sometimes, you know, lyrics can be very straightforward in how they're written. But um, there's something incredible about hearing someone write a lyric where you go, wow, that is the perfect way to say that. Like, I never would have thought of that combination of words together. And now that I've heard it, I feel like a weight is off of me because like you know, someone else understands it, but also now I have the language to even explain it to myself or like explain myself to to someone else, you know. Um so there's a a real power in that. I'm sure in poetry as well, I just don't spend a lot of time in poetry, but yeah, song lyrics can be really amazing that way when they're done well. You know, it feels like uh like a divine gift almost.
SPEAKER_01:It really does, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So uh I guess that's an interesting segue to move from lyrics to non-lyrics. You know, you mentioned that the band that you're in right now is instrumental.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, this is something I was really curious to talk to you about and like your journey like into and with instrumental music, and maybe you can give me some good recommendations because you're gonna laugh at me. But I was thinking about this today. I'm like, all right, my journey with uh with instrumental music it somehow feels very different than yours. Um like we're close enough in age that uh we pretty much came up with the same music. You know, you're a few years younger than me. Uh four years maybe, something like that.
SPEAKER_02:Uh I think four, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Four, yeah, sounds right. So used to feel like a big age gap, but it doesn't anymore. Um yeah. Uh thanks, Father Time. Um but yeah, I I was thinking about this and I'm like, I I feel like my instrumental tastes are so old school compared to yours. Like somehow you caught the new wave, and I feel like I missed it at some point. Like uh the the big one for me was Steve Vai. Like I'm a huge Steve Vai fan, and that was who I really gravitated to in high school. But it was all those kind of guys. It was like Satriani and Ingve and Paul Gilbert and that whole era of you know instrumental guys. And then I kind of when I was in my early 20s, I completely bailed out of rock and metal for like I don't know how long it was. It was for quite a while, though. Like I I had this feeling like I sort of have had my fill of that. Um and I was just looking for anything that felt fresh and new. I hadn't had that exciting new feeling in quite a while. And so I just started listening to things that I never listened to before and pushing myself into different places that way. And then when I finally came back to more of that like guitar-centric and instrumental type stuff and rock and metal in general, it felt like this seismic shift had happened to where all these bands sounded completely different than what I was used to hearing. It's like the tones were less uh distorted, like your tone is heavy, and and this is I mean, this is a big compliment too, actually. Maybe we can talk about how you get your sound. Um, but like you have this big uh heavy sound, but it's really spanky. Like yeah, yeah. Um like it doesn't sound like where I left off where music was with the level of saturation and like everything is a 5150 with a you know a tube screamer into the front of it, kind of kind of thing, right? And you're gonna be like, oh no, actually that's what I use. Um, yours doesn't sound like that. Uh and uh what do you mean that's not the only amp ever? Yeah, yeah, apparently. And so it was it was interesting. Like I came back in and and I'm going, man, it sounds like all these bands are so different. And I'm hearing these guys like uh, you know, Polifia being probably the most famous version of kind of instrumental music that's out there right now, um, you know, intervals, some of these different artists that are super cool. And I felt like the whole vibe shifted, and then I felt immediately like an old man, like I totally missed the boat. But I feel like your music and the things that you do feel much more in line with kind of what is um what's current. And so, like maybe uh catch me up on what I missed, um, or you know, your journey into instrumental music and what it is that you hear in the genre that you really like and what you gravitate toward, and maybe some of the things that uh that you don't like.
SPEAKER_02:Uh so I guess we'll start with this. My journey into instrumental music started out similarly to you. Um or well, yeah, similarly to you. Um Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, Steve Vai, especially. Um, he was he was a big influence in my starting with instrumental music. Uh Ingve Malenstein as well, just because I liked the classical aspect and like a lot of the harmonic minor stuff that he was doing. Um the pull of the sharp seven going into the tonic has just always been something that like scratched my brain in a particular way that was like, uh yeah, I like that. Um yeah, Steam by uh I remember specifically uh his song for the love of God that he did with uh I can't remember what orchestra it was, uh, but I'm positive you've seen the video. Oh yeah a thousand times. Yeah. Oh uh man. So yeah, that like that was just so cool to me, man. And like how how well he performs and like is feeling the music in the moment, that was also something that got like that got me. And in the absence of lyrics, like all that's there is the music.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Uh so that was really cool, and also his music video for Tender Surrender. Um and just how many times he like brushes his hair just absolutely cracks me up.
SPEAKER_00:The fan on the pedal board, like all those things. But also, there's a there is a quirkiness to his music that I feel like probably has been a big influence for a lot of people in the genre now today, because I hear a lot more quirky guitar music in a in a different way, but than what I used to hear. You know, someone like Paul Gilbert or Satriani or even Malmstein, for as amazing as they are, their music was not exactly like I wouldn't call it quirky, uh, but I feel like I hear a lot of those weird combinations of I there's probably a better word than quirky for it, but I hear a lot of um ADHD almost in uh in modern instrumental music. Uh I don't know if that's fair for me to say or not.
SPEAKER_02:But I think I would agree with that. Um especially with like because I've seen jokes about it and stuff on Instagram that like all uh like social media guitar playing is at this point, is just like coming up with like wacky goofy sounds and not even like actually playing guitar. It's just like production basically. Yeah, and I'm like, yeah, I kind of get that. Um, and especially and it's funny actually that we're talking about this particular thing. Um, because a guy that I watch every now and then, Nick Broomhall, um he was using the neural DSP Mietra Mansour plugin, and there's like a laser pedal on that, and you can just come up with like all kinds of like ridiculous sounds um to where your guitar doesn't even sound like guitar anymore. Um, and it's cool, but to that sentiment, uh yeah, I feel like some aspects of the guitar-focused, like prog quote unquote, uh scene is kind of very like ADHD, but there are also a lot of people that put a lot of thought into it. Um it almost comes off into ADHD, but it's actually like a lot more complex and deeper than just sounding like absolute chaos.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. So, how do you get from Steve Vai to what you're doing now? Like, who would you consider uh you know, influences or or bands that got you really excited about you know continuing to pursue that sort of direction?
SPEAKER_02:Um Steve Vai, Yngbei, uh Jose Etriani, those guys that kind of led its way into Andy McKee uh and Sunday Jung and the kind of like two-hand guitar kind of thing. Um and one thing that I always appreciated, you know, there was one other guy that I remember watching, I will never remember his name for the life of me, but there's a particular video and like section of a video that's just been stuck in my head ever since, and I can see it perfectly, but I can't remember anything else. Um but anyway, one thing that I've always loved about, especially Andy McKee's playing, is how harmonically, at least to me, how harmonic excuse me, harmonically dense it is, or it can be, but there's still being like a clear sense of melody.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um and it's just I don't know, it's just a lot of beautiful harmony uh in the music that he does.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So that going into years later, after listening to like Avenged Sevenfold Trivia, uh Kill Switch Engage, getting into heavier metal, I end up finding like I don't even remember who it was that I found first, but it was either David Maxim or probably Intervals, um finding just like instrumental guitar music. Um and I think probably David Maxim was my first uh I guess installment into that or exposure to that. And I really just fell in love with what he did. Uh, because it was like some of his, I don't know if you've ever listened to him before, but some of the stuff that he does is like it's out there, but in like a I don't know, just kind of a fun way, I guess.
SPEAKER_00:Um yeah, I don't think I've ever heard his music. His name is David Maxim.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, David Maxim Michic. Uh he is a Serbian guitarist.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, yeah, you'll have to send me something from him so I can check it out. I'm curious. I got you. But yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um But yeah, I started listening to him and then End up finding intervals, uh polyphia, chon, um, being like heavily into chon. Uh animals as leaders.
SPEAKER_00:Uh that's another good one.
SPEAKER_02:Uh and then I think those were kind of like the staples for a while. And then finding people on, you know, on Instagram, uh social media that do roughly the same thing, uh, and just like other guitar players. Uh, and then yeah, I that just kind of led me to where I'm at now. Um and they've all definitely influenced me, especially Aaron, um, Aaron Marshall with intervals. Uh, and I'm sure you can see parallels between his playing and my playing. Uh, a lot of the kind of like bluesy-ish stuff, or like inflections that he and I will both do. Yeah. Um, but I tend to get influenced by whatever I'm listening to at the time. And that can obviously that can change. Um, but it used to be to where I was pretty heavily influenced by like pop punk. Um just because a lot of the like chordal voicings in that were just pleasing to my ear. Um the like post-rock kind of thing, um, the amount of ambience in post-rock uh is really cool. Uh, and I just like the overall vibe of it. And there were these guys uh named Hubris that came through Fresno that we were supposed to play with a few years ago, and I went to go see them. And just listening to them was it was just so cool, man. They're uh like 100% post rock, but they were also like locked in and just fun to watch, and the whole sound of everything was just uh it was so good, dude. I love those guys, they're so cool. Um But yeah, uh I think whatever whatever I end up writing tends to be influenced by what I'm listening to at that point in time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, okay. Um I on the the opposite side, I'm curious, you know, especially because you know you participate in the Instagram world of guitar playing in this sort of genre, uh, and I know that you you know you see a lot of guitar playing. Are there things within the genre like anything you can think of that drives you nuts or that you're just not a fan of? And I and I don't mean like players necessarily or bands, but like I don't know, like could be uh well it could be anything really. I'm curious if anything comes to mind for you.
SPEAKER_02:Uh anything that I'm not a fan of. Um I think I think people being and this I mean it's gonna mostly pertain to female guitars, but people being like overly sexualized on social media or uh I guess being like objectified. Well, I don't know if objectified is the right word, but people thinking that oh, they only have an audience because they're a female or they look good or whatever the case may be. Um whether or not they're I have to like a better way to phrase it, skill is real, um, or like they're actually good or not is different. But I don't know. That's one thing that bugs me, uh, because I know a lot of people deal with that.
SPEAKER_00:Um so can I clarify that point? So you're you're saying more from the audience perspective, like assuming that if is that what I'm understanding? Or are you saying who people who maybe overly sexualize themselves to gain an audience and making it not as much about the music and more about you know how they look?
SPEAKER_02:Uh more so from the audience perspective because and this is funny because this is an assumption in and of itself, but a lot of those people that will comment things like that are working on assumptions. Um and they just don't know. And I know a lot of people are just gonna go on Instagram or social media just to comment a bunch of bullshit anyway. Uh yeah. So I don't know. That's that's annoying for me to see. Um as far as like content that I don't like to see or that annoys me.
SPEAKER_00:Uh or gear or sounds, or really anything.
SPEAKER_02:You said gear or sounds?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, I'm just spitballing. I'm just curious. Like, you see a lot of stuff within the within that world, like what's uh what's something that you just skip to the next video when you see it?
SPEAKER_02:Um you know it's funny you ask that because I feel like I consume so much content as it is that I don't remember. It just like everything kind of blends together. Um let's see. I don't know, I think one thing I don't know, I think one thing that I don't like to see from a content creator perspective, or that's just kind of like I don't really care for is people being like over how do I phrase this? Um overly emotive and like having this whole getup uh and just like playing way too much into the thing that they're either covering or um promoting, I guess, or playing. I don't know. To me, it's just I don't mean for this to come off as like rude, but to me it just feels like a bit like clown work, I guess. Um but I mean are you talking about like like guitar face and that sort of thing or uh not necessarily guitar face, but like having an old a whole outfit um like done, like something like just two the nines, uh not like a normal outfit, but a whole costume. Um like people some people will like paint their face um or do something to stand out in some kind of way, which I get it, because you're having to compete a bunch or amongst all other kinds of content, and you have to compete for like three seconds of attention because everyone's attention span is shit. And you have to try to get people to watch further than that to try and see what it is that you're promoting or what you're selling or what you're trying to get out into the world, because all they have to do is just eh, and it's that like all that all those hours of work that you put in reduced down to that, yeah. Yeah, I get it, but at the same time, I'm like why can't we all just like watch stuff? Or like why does it I guess why does it have to be that hard? But that's also just kind of the ecosystem for lack of a better word, that social media or at least promoting via social media has kind of brought us to from my perspective.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, I totally get that. I totally get that. I think yeah, everyone's out there trying to figure out how do I get people to pay attention. Um, and to your point, they put a lot of time into it. I think people do probably venture into tactics that are a little disingenuous at times. For me, that's always the big turnoff. It's like, you know, if it's David Lee Roth, I want to see him in the getup, you know, uh, or Gene Simmons, you know, you expect the makeup and the crazy and the you know platform shoes. But um if I even catch a little sliver of a vibe that that's not really who you are and you're doing that kind of thing, that's gonna immediately be a turn off. Yeah. Well, okay. Um we're an hour and eight minutes into this, so I don't want to keep you all night, but if you got a little more time, uh, I feel like we have to talk about gear. I would feel like I failed a little bit if we didn't talk a little bit about like how you get your sound and and what you're using. I also want to talk about the guitars that you use because I've been endlessly fascinated with them. Um and uh you have some stellar instruments, at least they certainly look that way.
SPEAKER_02:Extremely obnoxious guitars, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Uh yeah, they look like race cars, and it's amazing. Um what are you what are you using these days? Um and maybe more specifically, because I I believe you're in the digital world. Um so if that's the case, like what kind of uh what kind of things are you using to get your sound? And you know, you kind of laughed when I said that you have a kind of a spanky guitar sound, so maybe you can elaborate on uh the secrets of getting a Joe White Guy uh guitar tone.
SPEAKER_02:Getting a typical white guy guitar tone. Yeah. Uh I'll give you all the the white guy sauce. Um so yeah, so I'm in the digital world. Uh yeah, I'm in the digital world. Um for a long time I've used uh my AxeFX uh both live and for recording. Uh two years ago or well, actually three years ago now. I switched to using all neural DSP products for recording. Live, I still use my fractal. Um why is that? For the change to fractal from neural for recording stuff? Uh yeah. Um so I switched mainly because of convenience. Uh I could change things just on the fly or like tweak tones however much I wanted to. Uh, and not be basically metal until I found something that I was happy with. And I didn't have to go back through and re-record an entire passage with a different tone. Um because at the time that I was recording with my AxeFX, I was just recording through the AxeFX into my interface, and then basically just printing the like full tone onto the DAW. Um and with Neural DSP, I don't have to do that. I know there are ways that you can get around doing that even with a fractal just by having like a DI box and then re-amping it. Uh, but I didn't have a DI box, and this just seemed easier. Um, so yeah, for the last three years now, crazy. Uh I've been using neural DSP products. Uh Gojira has been the main one. Uh and that's how I get my uh my spanky sound. Uh okay.
SPEAKER_00:I would not have guessed that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's uh I don't know, I don't know what it is, man. I just started using Gojira and just fell in love with it. I was like, okay, this sounds really sick, and it was working for what I was doing at the time, and I kind of just stuck with it and was like, okay, what else can I get out of this? And ended up getting other stuff out of it. So I was like, cool, this is the one for me.
SPEAKER_00:So I've never used anything from Neural DSP, which is why I was curious, like what the draw was to it, and already what you're saying has got me going, oh man, do I have to check that out? Um, I I've seen that they put out all the artists' you know products and whatnot. Um yeah. So like with the the Gojira plugin, are there like what kind of options show up in something like that? Do they just model whatever amp Gojira uses, or is it like its own little ecosystem? Um like what is that based off of?
SPEAKER_02:It's so they're based off of particular amps. Uh there's like a clean amp, uh rhythm amp, and a lead amp. And there are cabs that are associated with all three, and you can link all three of them together, or you can mix and match basically whichever one you want, or whichever combo you want to use. Uh, there are effects that you get with it, and and the effects that you get with different plugins will vary. Normally, there's always going to be like delay and reverb, but with uh like archetype plenty, well, actually, I think there's just delay and reverb with that one. Um, but you also get like compressors, overdrive pedals, uh, buzz pedals, um, and just various other things that are relevant to the artist or uh I guess make sense with the plugin. Uh for the Gojira plugin, there's a whammy pedal, which is I normally just treat as like a pitch shifter pedal, um, which can be fun. Excuse me, but normally, honestly, I don't use it. Um, I just use a different plugin for pitch shifting, uh, which is funny because it's a it's the mixed-wave mic stringer plugin. There's uh I just use it for like transposing pitch shifts. Um and then just the like tone itself is archetype Gojira. And then the thing with uh neural DSP plugins as well, you can like stack them and use different things from each one, uh, which I guess probably kind of obvious, but you can use like different amps, different cabs, uh, different effects and pedals from like each plugin.
SPEAKER_00:And you get your full sound just like if all you had was the Gojira plugin, you'd be happy.
SPEAKER_02:Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Uh there's a little bit of processing that I do uh prior to the plug-in, um, which is just kind of like treating the DI in a particular way. But I that part of it's not really necessary, I guess. I mean, I can pretty much just get like the core of my sound with Gojira.
SPEAKER_01:Huh.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So I'm that kind of blows my mind a little bit, and I'm gonna have to go play with it because when I I I really like Gojira. And when you said that, I'm like, never in a million years would I I have associated their sound to your sound. So that's so cool, like how you found a way to make that uh really like just your own, and it doesn't I mean the style of music is pretty different, but um Yeah. Yeah, wow. Okay. So what what about like for bass? Uh privately I've complimented you on some of the great bass tones that you get as well. Um like what are you what are you doing to get that?
SPEAKER_02:So I am using uh again, neural DSP uh Parallax, which I've had for a while. Um, and I've used it with at least for memories of a life, two different bases. Um one of them was Atticus Martin's or Atticus's um Bongo six-string bass that he had, and then I used it also with my Sterling uh, I think it's a Ray 35, uh just five-string bass single pickup. Um trying to get things to sound like full-bodied, but also like ganky, if that makes sense. Um yeah, that's I mean, for bass, that's really all I use is just parallax. Wow.
SPEAKER_00:Keeping it simple. Well, it sounds really great. So uh it makes me feel like I'm overcomplicating things on bass, especially. I I I'm constantly like trying every time I go to record a bass part, I feel like I try a different combination of like I I use the Axe FX, um but like different combination of amps within there, different types of compression, different like mixture of DI and amp sound, or just DI. And uh I feel like I'm tone chasing there more than anything. And really the the only thing that is you know consistent with all of that is it's the same bass, which probably means that maybe the sound that I'm l going for might be a different style of bass. Uh because it's it's a great bass, it sounds great. Um, but you know, it's a it's a P bass, so it sounds like a P bass. Uh so yeah, maybe I need something that's got a little more uh uh meat to it or something.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean like I got mine for like I think it was a little over 800 bucks, and it's just single pickup, bridge pickup, and it sounds sick. Like I used it for uh a cover gig that I did for one of my friends in White Wolf, and I was using my Axe FX with it, but live, like it just sounded thick and like punchy, and it sounded sick, and it had plenty of like gank to it, and I was like, Yeah, this is what I want. This is exactly what I want in a bass tone. So yeah, I I love that bass. I've never had any issues with it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So let's talk about your guitars. Um, you play uh I feel like you exclusively play Aristides. Do you even have any other guitars?
SPEAKER_02:Um I haven't I have an acoustic uh that well, I mean they don't make acoustics, but as far as electric guitars are concerned, no, I don't. Not at the moment.
SPEAKER_00:So how did you end up finding them? They're I mean, they're pretty popular now, but at the time that you started playing them, like uh definitely a smaller builder. And it seems like most, if not everything that they do is custom. Um, how did you end up playing one of those? Did you just order it and hope that it was awesome? Or like what did that look like?
SPEAKER_02:So I first got exposed to uh Aristidas through uh probably I think it was social media and I think it was probably Facebook at the time. This was like I got my first one back in 2018, I think it was. I think I ordered it back in 2017. I hope that's right. Yeah, that should be right. I may have gotten it like early 2018, but anyway, um I saw them on social media, and at first the finish that was on the guitar was like black, gray, and orange. I think it was supposed to be like an orange fallout kind of color. Um I didn't particularly care for it. I was just like, yeah, okay, this is whatever. Um, and then I started seeing people playing them. Excuse me. And I really just fell in love with the look of the guitars. Because the uh the two like little I guess or grooves uh above and below the strings on the body, they make me think of, I don't know why, but they always make me think of like a Lamborghini. Um, and I've always just thought that's like that's so cool. Star Trek to me, dude. They they feel like spaceships. Yeah, yeah. Um and so I started just like hitting people up. Uh because I remember I talked to, I think I talked to this guy named Paul Osinov, I talked to Jake House Amlow, uh, and I talked to a number of other people about the guitars, um, and also what the company is like. Because at that point, uh I had had guitars from other manufacturers, and the company was not great. Um and literally everyone I talked to had all good things to say about the guitars, all good things to say about the company. So I was just like, okay. So then I just I put in an order for one, and then I had never played one. So I was kind of just shooting in the dark with it, and I was like, we'll see what happens.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um and then the first one I got was the Aqua Green 7 String, and it's been great. That that guitar is uh has served me very well. Um and then after that, I just somehow I ordered like one a year. Um but yeah, it's uh basically started like once everything was out and I had that guitar, I just started using exclusively Aracitas, and I everything has been consistent. Like I know what I'm gonna get with the guitars since they're all composite bodies, um, and they're made the exact same way every time. I know how it's gonna sound, and I've gotten things to a point to where like I plug and play with pretty much everything I do. Like get it set up, tuned up, good to go, solid.
SPEAKER_00:So with you having a few of these guitars, I assume there are other than the finish, there are other things that are unique about them. Um, like do you do you choose different pickups for each one, or like what does that look like for you?
SPEAKER_02:Uh so in the Aqua Green one, so I have two guitars that have the same pickups. Yeah, two guitars that have the same pickups, uh, but slightly different orientations. Uh, and then my other two guitars have different pickups. Uh, and I did it to kind of mainly have tomal variety in what I do. So my first guitar has bare knuckle silos. Um my second guitar, and they all have five-way switches. So my first guitar has bare knuckle silos, my second guitar has uh Fishman Classics in it, uh, with a five-way switch, push-pull on the tone, and a push-pull on the volume. Um, and I mainly just use push-pull on the tone for that one just to get the coil split or coil tap rather. Um and then my third guitar also has bare knuckle silos on the bridge and neck, but it has a bare knuckle trilogy in the middle, and that one also has a coil tap on the tone and a five-boy switch. That guitar is normally what I get my like twang tone on. Um, and that one just has kind of a mojo with it in that regard. Uh, but it all I don't know, that guitar just sounds awesome. Um and then the fourth one that I got uh is a raw uh shell pink one that has bare knuckle polymaths in it. Uh and there is, I mean, there's a weight difference between them because the other three are all um not clear-coated, but uh they're not raw, they're painted finished. Um and the way that the body kind of reverberates against you is slightly different, and it also kind of projects differently acoustically, slightly. Um, those are the it's mainly just pickup differences between each of the four of them.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, that's super cool. I mean, they the thing that is most evident is they're visually striking every one of them. And just from following their page, like I don't know if there's another company out there that's making cooler finishes on guitars. Then, like you said, the physical construction of it, they look very uh highly engineered and not over-engineered, they just look sophisticated, you know, they look like you know Tesla or uh, you know, some kind of spaceship or a border Lamborghini. Yeah, yeah, they look fast, they look cool, but they don't look like everything else that's on the market, which is so interesting. Um and it's like a really striking difference from a brand like PRS, who obviously makes uh amazing instruments, but I've always kind of had a hard time wrapping my head around most of the finishes on their guitars, though. Um, they always looked more like furniture to me than guitars, and I realize that sounds really bad. I don't necessarily mean it to be like pejorative, but but that is like how it feels to me. Um but yeah, like super sick finishes, and then the guitars sound great too. I don't know a ton of players that play them. Um I follow probably a couple on Instagram. Um, I mean, you being the the primary one that I've seen play them. And you know, I've seen seen you play in person as well. And yeah, they look great on stage, they look great in your videos, and also sound super good. Uh so I I've I've been very curious about them for a long time. And before too long, probably I'll have to try to check one out. Um, but uh yeah, it's it's weird. I I've always been weird with like not being able to play a guitar before I buy it. But I guess that's just kind of the world that we live in now with some of that stuff.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. And I mean, like I normally I'm that way with most everything. Uh if I don't have an opportunity opportunity to check it out or see it in person, normally I'm a lot less likely to buy it. But I don't know, for me, the resounding positive uh feedback from everyone about the company and about the guitars, I was just like, well, okay, I have a little bit for me personal, personally, I have a little bit more confidence in kind of shooting in the dark with this and kind of just throwing my money and seeing what happens with it. And honestly, I'm glad I did because, excuse me, after playing, getting the first one and then using them exclusively for everything that I was doing, um, I ended up getting on their artist roster through everything that I had done up to that point, which honestly was surprising. Uh, because I did not think that would happen. Uh, because I had reached out to one of them just out of curiosity, I was like, hey, like, are you guys I forgot what exactly I had said, but I was like, hey, are you guys like, is your artist roster open for like any new people? Uh and I was like, if so, like, would it be possible for me to get on it? And I was like, I'll just shoot the shots, see what happens. Uh, and I remember one other guys, uh Timo Somers, he responded, and I've heard him play before, um, just at NAM, and he like, the dude's a fucking ridiculous player, he's a monster good player. Um, and he responded, and he was like, Yeah, dude, we'd love to have you. Like, I love your playing. And I was like, What? Uh it was just it was just surprising um that you know, that they would let like a little old guy like me from the Central Valley in California uh on their artist roster. But it was also kind of a cool um, I guess, redeeming moment, and like, okay, like I'm doing something, you know, like everything that I've done is not it's not in vain. Um, like there are people that like what I do, which at times, you know, is Like, of course, some people other than myself like what I do, but also like as artists, I don't know if you ever feel this way, but I definitely do. Um, tend to feel like, damn, like nobody fucking likes what I do. Like, why do I keep doing this? Nobody's gonna listen to it, nobody's gonna love it. Well, I just give up on everything, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Well, I have certainly wrestled with that demon. Um, and well, first I would just say, congrats, that's super sick. I don't think I knew that you were on their art artist roster, uh, but you absolutely deserve to be on there because you're a sick guitar player. And yeah, it it's it is funny though, because I I know exactly what you mean. It's really easy to convince yourself, especially these days, man. I don't I don't think I worried about it as much when I was like more coming up. Like, okay, YouTube comes out in what like 2007 or six or seven, probably, or at least that's I think when I become aware of it. So I'm like 16. There's like five videos on YouTube when I'm 16, right? I mean, I'm yeah, I'm joking, it blew up fast, right? But like, and uh Facebook was a thing, but not really like that, not for video, you know. It was like, you know. Um and so it was like the only people I could really compare myself to were the other people in town that I knew that played guitar, you know? And you know, it's like you know that there's great people out there, you know. I knew who Steve Vai was, so I knew that there was like a level you could get to. Uh, but now it's like you you spend any time on social media and there's like a million people that you can easily convince yourself are better than you at your thing. Um and I think part of maturing is just accepting that uh that that is not really true. Like, yeah, it's a crowded space for sure, and there's a lot of people who are immensely talented, but there's only one you, and there's only one me, truly. You know, if we're expressing ourselves in the most honest sense of the word, then and we're not trying to compete, and we're not trying to uh do someone else's thing as good or better than them, then that's where you're gonna end up succeeding, I think. And yeah, for me, dude, I've had and continue to have plenty of self-doubt. Um, but I don't know. I I'm doing my best to set that aside at this point in my life and just say, I love doing this. So I'm just gonna assume that everyone's gonna think it's awesome. Uh, because I think it's awesome. I mean, it's not like I'm making music that I don't believe in. So I have to assume that there is an audience of people who are gonna really dig this. Now, whether it's gonna be the next biggest thing in the world or not, I don't get to control that. But I also like would rather not be the biggest thing in the world. Like, I want to be successful. Um, but I'll take a smaller, more manageable slice of the pie that, you know, uh and I'd take that any day and be able to do what it is that I love, you know. So yeah, hopefully you don't wrestle with that too much because um I don't know, like I I don't see any or follow anyone who I feel like you don't hold up against, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Uh well there's a few people who I'm pretty positive I would not hold up against. Um but to uh echo what you were saying, I've gotten to a point in my life where I'm like, okay, like I don't need to be the shred guy, like I don't need to be like a super technical nerdy guy. Not that there's anything wrong with any of that. Yeah, but for me, that's just it's just not what I focus on. Um and I'm I'm good with where I'm at. Uh I know I can definitely get better, but I mean I'm never gonna be like the super shreddy person or whatever. That's just I'm good where I'm at right now.
SPEAKER_00:Well, yeah, dude. I mean, well, first of all, what you do is shred to me. Um it's all perspective, right? Um I joke a little bit, but also not. Uh but yeah, I don't know. It's like um it like going back to the the people that sort of inspired us early in our journey, right? Like you can like Satriani and by. You know, it's not like there's only space for one of those guys, right? Um they're both they're both huge, they're both beloved, um, they're both unique, but they're still in the same space. I mean, you know, they came up at the same time. So when I think of it that way, I go, like, okay, yeah, I mean, maybe there's people that you can't compare yourself to that are a close enough comparison that you might feel inferior. But the truth is, like, there's still a space for you as long as you don't quit and as long as you're proud of what it is that you do. So, really, that's the important part. It's just like getting comfortable with that. And you sound kind of like me, you know, where I'm like, you know, there was a point in my life where I really wanted to be like the best guitar player in the world. And at some point I realized like I am not cut out to be that guy, like for whatever reason. Yeah, that like I'm happy with being a good guitar player. I don't want to be a total scrub. But to me, what I realized, like through the through my process with the instrument, is the thing that I actually love a lot more than just playing guitar is writing songs. And to me, the guitar it happens to be like my primary way of writing songs. And I really love production and I really love a lot of the elements that go into songwriting and like making a song. And so guitar happens to be an important part of that, but it's not the thing that I love the most. And in order for me to be the very best guitar player that I could be, I would have to love it more than everything else. And so I had to kind of accept, well, it's like if I'm gonna enjoy what it is that I'm doing the most, then I have to broaden my definition of what like 15-year-old me thought was like the best goal to have. 15-year-old me was an idiot. Um and had some really big dreams, which is great. And I still have some of those dreams, but you know, the definitions need to change a little bit as we mature and just realize what it is that we really uh get the most out of, I think, with the journey that we're on. You know, for some people it will be technical proficiency or it'll be like um knowledge of music theory or composition. Um, for some it's songwriting or production or any of these things. And you can still be a really great musician um while uh, or at least so I'm told, be a really great musician and a great songwriter. Um and so, yeah, like for me, I had to at some point sort of like wrap my head around, okay, it's alright to let that one dream die for this other one to live. And this is the one that I'm more comfortable with anyway.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah, because I remember similarly for me, like there was a point where I wanted to be the kind of like fast player, shreddy kind of guy back in high school. But then with social media becoming as prominent a thing as it became, seeing and the world just instantly practically becoming way smaller. Uh realizing what all was out there, I was like. Okay, I'm fine.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, routinely being showed up by the kids.
SPEAKER_02:I'll never get to that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, like literally like seven-year-old kids playing way better than me. I'm like, I don't I'm never gonna be able to make up that time. You know, I'm 35 now. Yeah. So uh I think it's time to let that one go.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I feel that heavily. It's like yeah, I'll never I'll never have the time that they have or that they have now. It's just years of progress gone.
SPEAKER_00:But it's all relative, right? Because it depends on what what kind of music it is that you want to make. And so if the kind of music that you want to make demands that you be able to play like that, well then then you got a problem, right? And you gotta go woodshed. Um and I would say never give up if that is what it is that you want to do. But like, I don't know, like speaking for myself, what I realize is like, oh, I only need to actually be like a quarter of as good to do the kind of thing that I mostly want to do, then like I thought I was gonna have to be. Uh, and that's totally cool. And I can always call an ace like you or somebody to like if I feel like a thing that I'm making is and honestly, that idea is one that excites me almost more than anything these days, is the idea of being able to like hit up an amazing player and be like, yeah, my song needs a little more juice than what I can provide. It would be so awesome to work with you and see what somebody is able to do uh in the context of something that I'm building. You know, it's like I have this bigger vision. So like come in and play this role and do something that is gonna like be surprising and and awesome, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, like I've uh in that vein, I've done some guestwork for a friend of mine uh named Ben McSherry, who he goes by Oceans in Silhouette on Instagram. Uh and he also writes instrumental music. Um but it's it's very I would say it's very different from what I do. Uh so it's cool to challenge myself and see what I can do in what he creates in the space that he creates. Um and also kind of you know, similarly to what you were saying, uh my friend slash kind of brother, uh Lewis White, who is over in the UK, uh, he's done some guesswork for me. And I've also done some guesswork for him. So it's I don't know, it's just cool seeing like I've got this body of work, like here's this section, like do something over that, and then just whatever they send back. It's like, ah, that's cool. Uh and then other people, you know, getting that like validation, you doing the same thing for them, them giving positive feedback, and it's like, okay, cool, I didn't let this person down, but also they like what I did. So like I'm doing something cool here. So it's like kind of a positive feedback loop.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I get that. And I I have to ask on a side note, it it does he go by Lewis White Guy?
unknown:No.
SPEAKER_02:Um I can't remember what he goes by. Uh off the top of my head. I think it has something to do with fish, but I can't remember now.
SPEAKER_00:I had to ask. Uh but no, the the other thing I was gonna uh ask slash say is like I imagine that doing a feature has got to be. I mean, I guess there is some pressure with it because like you don't want to let the other person down, but it's also gotta be a little bit freeing because if you're anything like me, when you are working on your own thing, sometimes you get like really strict parameters on what it is that you're trying to make. You know? And so it feels it's like you don't have limitations because you could do whatever you want, but what you want to do creates some limitations, and then when someone else wants you to do a thing, it's kind of like, oh yeah, I get to play in a different sandbox here. Like, you know, I get to do something that maybe I wouldn't normally do in my own music.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, I that makes sense. Uh, because I hadn't thought about it from that perspective. Because for me, it's like on one hand, yeah, like what I do for myself, like I kind of get like tunnel vision a bit on that. But also on the flip side, like I can do whatever I want with what I do. So it's like, yeah, I have tunnel vision, but that tunnel vision is kind of like everything, uh, and also not everything. Uh, but with someone when working with someone else or doing guesswork for someone else, it's like okay, now I get a fresh clean slate, in a sense, I can kind of just draw whatever on that and like hopefully it's cool. Uh and just kind of do something and have some fun with that. Hopefully it suits the song, of course, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00:No, just shred a sort of possibly just fill fill every tiny millisecond with notes. That's how you do it.
SPEAKER_02:This everything, everything is gonna be a bend on the 24th fret, tremolo picked, and that's it. There we go. Yeah, there we go.
SPEAKER_00:It's a solid 30 seconds of that. Yeah. Yeah, I need 64 bars of tremolo picking. Yeah. Well, we're almost at two hours, dude. Uh, I want to give you a chance to yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, an hour 45. Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I didn't realize it was there.
SPEAKER_00:Um, we'll probably, you know, wrap it up here, but I want to give a chance to uh allow you to shout out whatever you've got coming up. So people who are watching this want to come find you on Instagram or any of the places where you are. I know you've got a tour coming up, which is super awesome. I wish I was gonna be in Vegas at that time. Um, but yeah, tell the people where to find you and you know what's going on.
SPEAKER_02:Uh all right. So for all those curious, you can find me. You can find me on Instagram under Joe WhiteGuy. You can also find me on TikTok under the same login, or YOL, yeah, under the same username. Um that's pretty much all I post to, which even at this point, TikTok I don't really post to, but I swear I'm gonna start because I have people bugging me to like start posting on TikTok. Um so yeah, uh my band is called MBU Essence. You can also find us on Instagram. Um we have a run coming up. Uh is it October yet? Well almost tomorrow, I think. Like oh yeah, you're right, it is. Uh so by the time this releases, uh probably soon. Uh, but October 17th and October 19th, October 17th over in Vegas at uh Voodoo Bar, and October 19th over in LA at Slipper Clutch. Uh, if there's anyone listening to this, that is over in those places on those dates. Please come. Please buy our merch, buy merch from the bands that are gonna be there that night. Uh, please support everyone there. Um, yeah, that's uh that's pretty much all that I can think of. Uh well, also, okay, so another thing. Um Eric Beltran drums, I think he goes by on Instagram. He's the drummer for MBU essence, and uh no one's gonna be able to figure out how to spell this, but Bradford Boyajan, uh, he is the other guitarist on Instagram. Um, but they're also both just tagged in the band Instagram. Um yeah, and also my friend Jay Wheeler. Uh, she has helped me out a lot with the video stuff and has helped me out a lot with uh videography for my band and music videos for my band. Uh, the other person that helps with photography is Sky Zombie Photography, is what she goes by on Instagram. Great work. So that's it. Uh yeah, those are the shout-outs, and that's all we've got planned for this point. Um we are gonna be releasing new music. Uh, it's only a matter of time.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, okay. So that feels like a hint. Yeah. Is that is that the new uh EP or album title? Uh I would leave it up to interpretation. All right, fair enough. Well, maybe we can have you back on when you put new stuff out and we could talk about it. That'd be a good way to pick it up. And I'm sure we could we could go much longer on this. Um to make it easier on all the people. I'll also grab uh everyone's like Instagram handles and all that kind of stuff, and we'll we'll put that on YouTube. Um awesome. Well, for anyone who made it this far, thank you so much for listening. Uh, we appreciate it very much. And I will say once again, on behalf of Kevin, who unfortunately couldn't be here tonight. Um yeah, we appreciate you checking out the show. Uh, we appreciate um you listening. You can find out more about our podcast on our website. So that'sonicalchemy.com. Um, of course, we're uh we're on YouTube, we're on all the different places where you can listen to podcasts. Um until next time, thank you all so much.