The Sonic Alchemy
Welcome to Sonic Alchemy, the ultimate podcast for creatives looking to elevate their craft and gain insider insights into the world of artistry. Hosted by Justin Webster and Kevin Crouch of the band The Silver Echo, this engaging show provides a dynamic platform to showcase artists and delve into the myriad skills and layers that contribute to a successful creative career.
Each episode of Sonic Alchemy offers a blend of captivating interviews and insightful discussions. Our interviews feature a diverse array of artists who share their unique journeys, techniques, and sources of inspiration. These conversations provide listeners with a rare glimpse into the personal and professional experiences that shape creative success.
In addition to interviews, Justin and Kevin host thought-provoking discussions on various topics relevant to creatives. These episodes explore everything from honing specific skills and overcoming creative blocks to navigating the business side of art and staying inspired in a rapidly changing world.
Discover how successful artists overcome challenges and find their voice.
Gain practical advice on developing skills, managing a creative career, and staying motivated.
Connect with a community of passionate creatives who are dedicated to their craft.
Sonic Alchemy is more than a podcast; it's a journey into the heart of creativity. Join Justin and Kevin as they uncover the alchemical process that turns passion into artistry and artistry into success. Whether you're an aspiring artist or an established creator, Sonic Alchemy offers the insights and inspiration you need to thrive.
Tune in and transform your creative potential into gold with Sonic Alchemy!
The Sonic Alchemy
"Truth of Instinct" Part 3: Recording
Recording an album remotely transforms the entire creative process. When Kevin and Justin found themselves separated by hundreds of miles during the production of their upcoming album "Truth of Instinct," they discovered that creating music apart required an entirely new approach to collaboration.
Gone was the immediate validation of seeing your bandmate's head bob in approval or their excited "hell yeah!" when you nailed a take. Instead, they developed a new language of collaboration through text threads, file sharing, and brutal honesty that ultimately pushed their music to new heights. "It's like learning to coach yourself," Justin explains, describing the vulnerability of recording vocals alone in a room with no immediate feedback.
The conversation reveals the fascinating paradox of creative work: being too focused on completion can actually prevent you from creating something great. Both musicians found that when they stopped trying to "get it done" and instead allowed themselves to explore, play, and truly listen, their performances transformed. This lesson manifested in songs like "Away From Us" and "Here in the Dark," where multiple attempts eventually led to performances that captured the emotional essence they were seeking.
Perhaps most compelling is their reflection on artistic growth over the six-year journey of making this album. They discuss the delicate balance between standing firmly behind your creative choices while remaining open to critique, the importance of asking better questions about what a song truly needs, and how their partnership weathered the challenges of distance through mutual respect and a shared vision.
Whether you're a musician, a creative collaborator, or simply curious about how art gets made, this episode offers valuable insights into the messy, beautiful process of creation. Listen now, and then check out The Silver Echo on all streaming platforms to hear how these hard-won lessons translated into their most ambitious work yet.
Learn more about The Silver Echo at thesilverecho.com
what's up? What's up, what is going on?
Speaker 2:ready for part three yeah, yeah, this is. Uh, this is going to be a fun one to talk about recording the actual tracks for real, post the demo. I'm sure we got a lot to kind of cover there, particularly about us working somewhat more remotely on this record than we ever have. I think more of it was done with us sort of isolated from each other, um, than any other thing we've really done. So I think there's some interesting things to talk about, like how how we were able to do that and still be a good coach for each other, um on parts and so forth as well.
Speaker 1:Well, let's back up briefly and as a reminder if you haven't heard the first two episodes, we have our new record coming out Truth of Instinct and so we talked about the writing process and then we talked about the recording process in terms of like equipment, and you know that sort of thing gear and you know putting all the sounds together. Uh, as kevin was alluding to, we're going to talk about getting performances today and how that was different than our first album. And just, you know we're constantly learning. So, uh, there was certainly a lot that we learned this time around. Uh, but I would say welcome to the show.
Speaker 1:Um, this is the Sonic Alchemy podcast, so we appreciate you tuning in and checking it out and, uh, we're excited to to just share a little bit of our world with you today. Uh, certainly not every episode is focused purely on us, but we're excited and we we put a lot of work into this new record. So we hope that shows through and that when you guys get a chance to hear it, that you appreciate that and that you can get a little behind the scenes on what it took for us to put it all together. So, with that said, anything that I'm missing there, kev, anything that you want to mention? No, I just I think um anything that I'm missing there, kev?
Speaker 2:uh, anything that you want to mention? No, I just I think um remember I think for context, if you haven't gone back and listened to those other episodes as well just to kind of bring us back to present it. The record took us about six years total from initial writing, but I would say more so than anything. Over the last three years has really been a lot of like refinement of the demos, the actual recording for some of these tracks and so forth, so, but it's been a labor of love for quite some time, and our journey to discover sounds and things that we talked about on the previous episode got us to a point where we were trying a lot of new things. But we're also learning.
Speaker 2:Six years is a long time, so we are learning a lot of things about how to record differently, how to record and do things a lot more efficiently. Um, so I think we'll talk about a little bit about that today, but just kind of rooting everyone back and like six years is a long time if you're in a studio that you're paying for for six years, yeah, lord help you. Um, that would be a long time with a lot of people and a lot of money, um. So luckily we've had some gear and stuff to be able to acquire along the way. That's helped us in that space, but still it's a long time.
Speaker 1:Well, and some things that turned out to be really key for me, or at least an important part of the equation. We wrote most of the record together. It doesn't mean that we didn't have ideas apart, but we would get together at your place and work on song ideas and collaborate, and you would hear me doing vocals and I would hear you doing keys and you know all that kind of thing Guitars we'd work on together whatever you know. If I was trying to track bass, maybe you would be able to say, hey, you know how, about this note, or do something like this? But then you know, basically at the end of demo phase, there was still some writing to be done and turned out to be more than we had bargained for.
Speaker 1:I thought we were closer when I moved out here, but I moved to Tennessee and so then we found ourselves in a situation where we were doing everything remotely and trying to record final tracks for the record, not just demo stuff without having each other to lean on. And I don't know how you feel about it I assume you probably feel similar to me is that there's probably a piece of needing some validation when you're being vulnerable in the moment, right, and you're like trying to get a great performance, and what's nice when you have someone in the room is that if you really do something well, usually there's an energy that gets picked up and the other person gets excited, and so it's easy to know that you're on the right track, because you know it's like maybe I I sing a part and you're ahead of me.
Speaker 1:I'm looking at your back while you're on the computer tracking and then, all of a sudden, I start seeing or you know, whatever it might be you know it's like that. Uh, those moments let you know that you're. Yeah, it's like playing in front of an audience, like you can tell when people aren't vibing with it.
Speaker 1:You feed off and also tell when people are into it and and it becomes like a reinforcing energy thing. Right, it's like you, you do a thing that people respond to you and now you're responding to them, responding to you and it keeps building and create something cool to them responding to you, and it keeps building and create something cool. So for me, uh and of course I'm gonna make this all about me now but but for me in this process, that was really hard to figure out. I spent a lot of time, I would say, on on vocals, um, trying to create that energy for myself and trying to put myself in a different headspace than what I've had to be in before, which is one where I'm having to imagine that I'm not me listening back.
Speaker 1:I'm going like, okay, I need to fully give myself to the performance while I'm there, but then when it's you know, maybe I've done however many takes, or my voice is getting tired, or whatever, now it's time to go back and listen. Now I have to pretend that I'm not the singer and just going like does this do anything for me if I'm Kevin or if I'm whatever the potential listener?
Speaker 2:is, you know, because?
Speaker 1:you would think that those two are the same thing, but oftentimes they're really not. So that was a big adjustment.
Speaker 2:It's definitely something I'll go back to. Well, first, I think just you and I recording in a hot garage was like our thing.
Speaker 2:It was just sort of like a rite of passage for us, particularly on the first album, and there were so many times where, yeah, you're looking at the back of my head and so you're trying to graph something, and it's either me bobbing or like yes, or I'm giving you the horns and like yeah, that's it bobbing or like yes, or I'm giving you the horns and like, yeah, that's it something to keep you engaged in a space where, if you're being vulnerable, if you're sharing, if there's a song that you're really trying to tap into and you found that thing, I, as a listener, in that moment I'm trying to really absorb the performance. I'm not necessarily. What's always been tough for us is like you sometimes will get caught in your head about. Was that in key? Was that the right delivery? Was ever?
Speaker 2:And I'm honestly just like, does this make me feel good? Did this really? As a listener, I'm trying to really be in the place of. I just want to hear this, and if it connected with me, I'm not as focused on the place of I just want to hear this and if it connected with me, I'm not as focused on the thing about hey, that that was a little pitchy, um, but I started to getting better in that space and I think that was a lot of your help too was like, hey, this is what I'm I need help with, or this is what I need.
Speaker 1:But to fast forward, a lot of what was done here, particularly most of the vocals, I think, if not all of them, for this record you ended up doing after you moved yeah, no, every vocal, every vocal. Yeah, yeah, every vocal happened after wives.
Speaker 2:They're also not going to be necessarily the type of like critical person that we need in that space to go. That last note wasn't quite the right pitch, or it wasn't quite the right thing, or you know Not my tempo.
Speaker 2:Not my tempo. Yes, exactly Not my tempo. So I think that was some of it for sure. I also think that you're right in the sense that great things can happen when you're in a room together and you feed off the energy in that moment. Now, that also being said, there are times where we would want to smash our heads against the wall because we're not getting the thing that we want, and we both know we're not there. The thing that we want and we both know this ain't we're not there.
Speaker 2:But I think what we've been able to really do and thank goodness for technology in this space is like we've been able to quickly go hey, I got an idea and I'm going to send you the file immediately, within a few minutes. I'm listening to the whole thing and I can go oh cool, Let me. I'm going to try this part. Or I want to let me hear the harmonies that you sent or whatever. And through sharing digitally at least, we can hear almost in real time the performance and can give notes back. So we were a lot of a whole lot of text threads, a whole lot of communication in that space to say how did this sound? I'm really looking for these type of notes, and we were being a lot more specific with each other in that way, and I do think that that helped us bridge a little bit of the thing that was missing, which is just us being in a room together and playing, you know, because there's sometimes we just go all over the place and have a good day and we don't get anything accomplished.
Speaker 2:But the accomplishment was to really get out of our head and just have a good time playing music together. But other times, when we're really focused, being in the room could certainly help when you're trying to get an energy or something happening.
Speaker 1:So um, yeah, and just just feedback, especially like the vocal parts weren't all written, so it's not like we have been rehearsing these songs for a couple of months and then going into a studio and it's like we know how it's supposed to go right now. We just have to do it you know it's like the, it's written down this is what it's supposed to be you know, read it.
Speaker 1:It's more of a situation of like we have a sketch and we know the vibe that we're going for, but there's a lot of room to play right and I think, uh, for me, that's where I struggled, because when you're in a group, you want, of course you have to do something that's true to you.
Speaker 1:You know I'm not going to come in here and do something that feels completely inauthentic, but at the same time you do want to also do something that feels really great to your collaborators. So, because you all have to get behind the song, so if it's like and the vocals are especially are such a big part of the song, you don't want to get to this place where you've worked on the music, you've labored over the chord progression, you've edited it away and how long it's going to be and all this stuff getting all the sounds right, and then you put a vocal on it that the other person's not that psyched about and it's like oh man, my, my excitement for this song before it had a vocal was like a nine or a ten and now it's like a four.
Speaker 1:You know. It's like okay. Well, what am I gonna do? Am I gonna tell him the vocal sucks? It's like well, I would, I would hope that you would. But before we got to that, point but you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Right, it's like there's an expectation that what you do is going to like. I don't know if this is a healthy way to do things, but I've always done this in any collaborative musical situation that I've been in is, my goal is always to surprise and excite the other players, ideally right Now. It doesn't always happen, but you always want to do something that makes people go ooh, like hell. Yeah, that's cool, because then other people do something like that too. And then, all of a sudden, you're hearing cool things from everybody. Everyone's pushing each other. You're hearing cool things from everybody. Everyone's pushing each other. Everyone's trying to surprise one another, or not. One up each other in a, an egotistical way. Like one up each other in a all right, like, like serve, you know, like okay.
Speaker 1:I served it to you, know, volley to you. I don't know Like that that was. That was certainly a moment where, uh, or a lot of moments working here where I'm going, man, I really want to push myself, but with so many places that this could go, I don't know what's going to be the place that's going to satisfy both my own interest and is also going to make you with your sensibilities and your way that you're hearing these songs come together and you know you have a different set of influences than I do that you're going to also really appreciate how the songs are shaping up.
Speaker 2:Right, I thought there was something too, and I think it's worth noting that it's not like we want to. Yes, songs in a studio we are. We don't do what a traditional band would do just because it's just the two of us right now, yeah, where we'd be getting a room, play the songs to death and then go into a studio and record them and get advice from the engineer and the producer. In that space, it's largely us and we craft in the bands don't do that anymore.
Speaker 1:Right, right, that's kind of from an era where studio time is expensive, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you want to get in there and record a whole record in a couple days, at least the tracking of it. So for us again, we have the luxury to be able to not have to do that. But also, time is an enemy in that space. So sometimes it takes us a while to get back to a certain song or a certain thing. And when you do that, getting back to that place of what was the mood of this, what were we trying to say, what were we trying to evoke in that thing, if you're not careful, you can lose sight of that too. So I think we've done a really great job in being able to still be transparent when something's not working. We tell each other just like we were if we were in the same room, and say, hey, all in love, but this isn't it. Yeah, you know Right.
Speaker 2:And I think again for those who are out there, we had another podcast quite a while back about having the right collaborator, and I think for you and I spending the better part of 11 or 12 years writing together, we've at least built enough of a shorthand that if it isn't working, regardless of where you are if you're, you know, across the world or in my garage, we're still going to be able to communicate and say the same thing. So at least that helped us in that space. But I would have to say there were definitely some songs that we worked on that were much harder than others. Um, yeah, to really get the parts I, I too, was something that, um, I'll go back and share, something that was really important. Like you know, working your day job and then coming home and wanting to be able to really get in the headspace to write something for all time. As you say, it's this for all time. You sure this?
Speaker 2:is the one right, that's the one you want, that's the one we're going to print. And so, coming home and trying to do that, sometimes I would be like, yeah, this sounds good, but something I was also avoiding doing, even though I have a lot of things that can be synced to a MIDI clock or quantitized to death. You really pushed me to not use those sort of things to get the sense of feel and time and like we were playing in a room together, the sort of organicness that comes from that and that was very difficult for me, like oftentimes it's just me myself and I, very similar to you, and you're trying to get in the pocket, you're trying to find things to really make this feel as though it was a very organic, natural performance that we did as a trio or as a full band or whatever, and so sometimes there were places, at least in this, where that was much more challenging to me. I think a song like Away From Us would definitely be one where it was much more about a feeling that we were trying to evoke and, yes, it needed to be structured in time and all that. I'm not saying it was like free flow time it's not, but it needed to feel like it was a little bit more emotive and could move around a little bit in and out of the pocket somewhat.
Speaker 2:That was one for me that even though we worked on and we got the parts and it took us a little bit of time to get there when it came time to performing that song, I remember, goodness gracious, countless takes just to get it to where I felt like even those little three or four chords were feeling right in the pocket to really punctuate what we were doing. And so that was one. I think if I'm going back, that would be one on my list. That was a little bit challenging for me in the way that we were working.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, I don't know, I guess maybe it's something that you get better at the more you focus on it. Um, but it's almost rare for me, like I don't know what. With guitar it's easier, but with vocals it's not quite as easy, where, like when I first write something like, it takes a while for it to start to get comfortable. And when things start to get comfortable is when more personality starts to come out.
Speaker 1:I feel like you get beyond that part of your brain where you're trying to get the part right and you are actually playing. And I don't mean that in the most basic sense of the word. I mean it becomes play right. You know like you can play around with it and it feels like you can be loose or you can be more tight or you can be, you know whatever. It might be more energetic or more lethargic. Whatever it might be more energetic or more lethargic, you start to be able to like it starts to feel more like it's a part of you, rather than you're just trying to get the right pegs in the right holes. You know, kind of a thing.
Speaker 1:It's like the feeling of are you playing the song or is the song playing you? It's like what the telltale of this is. Often, when we have tried to work on these songs in real time, where we're all playing them is we'll get through a take and we go oh my God, I feel like I just got dragged behind a car. Like is the song?
Speaker 2:always that fast. Oh, we're playing to a click. Oh, ok, oh, that's.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so, that was the normal speed, huh, because your brain is moving so fast, trying to like remember the chord progression, remember the lyrics, what you know. Maybe this was a different way before. What is it this time? You're trying to get everything to fit together and you're just trying to like hold on for dear life. But there's something really special that happens when you can force yourself to get beyond that point and you get to the point where you're not having to think about what the chord is. You're feeling your way through it and you notice, oh, now I'm starting to hear things I didn't hear before. Maybe, like, when this chord goes to this chord, this note is a really nice way to transition. Or, oh, I don't have to play all that because the bass is doing that part.
Speaker 1:So what if I just oh, there we go things start to to fit in a different way, and that's where I feel like the real artistry is, because I could go into logic and pull up the midi editor and program in. You know chords and know I could create a piano part, let's say that fits in this song. But what's the difference between that and a player? Well, you're going to hit all the notes a little different. You're going to choose voicings depending on where your ear goes. Now, if I let you sit down for five minutes, you're probably going to do about the same as what I would program in, because you're just going to go OK, I have five minutes. You're probably going to do about the same as what I would program in Cause you're just going to go what? Okay, I have five minutes to do this.
Speaker 2:Well, here's the chords.
Speaker 1:But if I give you a week and time isn't an issue and you're able to spend time really playing it and you're not feeling the pressure of I just need to kick this back, then all of a sudden it starts to become more of a real thing, at least in in my mind, and that's how it was working for me with vocals, and I think that's what I was trying to communicate at the time was like let's not just get something down that works. What if we find something really special, even if it's subtle?
Speaker 1:you know, just by spending some time with it. You know, like a nice warm bath. You know, you just want to wait in there for a little while you know that was another.
Speaker 2:That was another one with, uh, a song called here in the dark. There's a piano introduction that I um from demo to doing that. I think we decided that what a cool thing it would be to kind of open this with a bit of a piano first, just by itself.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then it goes into the full band, and this was one where we talked about a pretty decent amount when it came time to do it, and it's more recent. It was one of the last things that I ended up sending you for the record. It just is one of those like hey, we still need to go back and redo that because it's it feels a little too metronomically on on the point here and it didn't flow naturally robotic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and and the parts were there and it was fine and it would definitely synced up, but it didn't have the emotiveness and and feel that it needed. And that was one where we're like hey, we got to do this and I'm like okay, and initially I was like, but the part's correct. But it really had me thinking like, ah, okay, I think I know what he's looking for and sometimes those things will send you on a journey where you go okay how am I going to?
Speaker 2:how am I playing the part? The part is correct, and, oh, by the way, months go by, so you have to go back and relearn your own part again, because it's not like it just comes to you at least not to me anymore. You know, you have a thousand things floating up in this brain of mine on any given day. So it's like, all right, I got to go back, let's relearn the part. And any given day, so it's like all right, I gotta go back, let's relearn the part. And now just start to really play it. Well, I don't want to play too slow, I don't want to play too fast, you just want to try and find the right thing. Then you start realizing just do all of these notes, are they all necessary to get across the motif so it can expand differently? And then it starts going yeah, okay, you know what f it? We're just gonna, I'm just gonna play a bunch of different things until I find something that really feels like this is what I was trying to say, and we talk.
Speaker 1:Start challenging yourself with better questions you know, you start really questioning what like? What is the heart of this piece?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember us talking about that. What's the purpose? Yeah, and saying I wanted to evoke something where it felt like you've walked into a house. It's somewhat empty, there's a piano setting over there, that's dusty. You pick up the cover, slide it back. You pick up the you know the cover, slide it back. You sit down and sort of the first thing that you play is kind of what turns into the melody that ends up informing the majority of that song yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I wanted it to feel like it was happenstance, like it was just some happy miracle that came from doing exactly that. Well, how do you do that? You know it. Well, how do you do that? You know? It's like how do you evoke that thing? Because it's so esoteric and nonsensical.
Speaker 1:It's one thing to say it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. To conceptualize it is one thing and that I did to myself, like I've done this to you a thousand times where I'm like, no, it needs to have a, you know, and it's got to be this thing. And it's like and I know you're probably going, uh-huh, yeah, I'm just trying to sing it in key kev, like I'll get to that point where I'm gonna, we're gonna do those things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't even know what the notes are.
Speaker 2:Yet I don't know what the notes are, right yeah, I'm just still finding the melody, so we'll get to that point about finesse in a little bit, and I'm talking to you, I'm like it's like in the movie when the da da da happened, you know whatever, and that.
Speaker 2:So that was a taste of my own medicine and trying to sit down and going okay, this is the feeling that I want to evoke with it. Let's see how I can get there. Uh, and spacing and timing and all of that kind of stuff comes into play and all of that stuff rattling in your brain, yeah, while you're trying to do it and you have to let it go at a certain point and go remember what it's like when you just sit down the instrument and you don't have any sort of obligation to it, it's just you're writing for the sake of having fun. Let's, let me get into that headspace and just play this melody as though I'm just having a good time, and it ends up that's the thing that ends up being the one that was most close to what the end result ended up being Um, yeah, just getting out of your own way.
Speaker 1:You bring up something that I think is important, that we both learned in our own way, something that I think is important, that we both learned in our own way, which is when you have it's probably easier when you're when you're younger on your instrument because you don't really care about the rest of your responsibilities or you just don't have any. You don't have a real life yet. Um, you know, maybe like mom yelling at you to come to the table for dinner or something is, like you know, the biggest interruption you're going to have. But I think, um, whether it's the day job, whether it's being a good husband or, uh, just taking some time for yourself or whatever, it's like. You might have an hour, you might have all day, it doesn't really matter how much time you have, just taking some time for yourself or whatever it's like. You might have an hour you might have all day. It doesn't really matter how much time you have.
Speaker 1:If you go in and you're too preoccupied with just get, with getting it done, with accomplishing something, and work so often will do this to you, where you're constantly working through a checklist. What did I get done today? You know I have to do A, b and C. I have to talk to this person, I have to fill out this report, I have to send this email, I have to call that person, I have to whatever, right, and you've got a million things. And it becomes this game of like checking boxes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not that your heart's not in it, you know, and that varies day to day, I'm sure, but yeah, but like it becomes a thing about task and I think it's important not to become too preoccupied with the end result being like completing something necessarily and that's a weird thing to say because you have to get the song done to get the song done. So you do, on some level, have to go in with the intention of, like, I want to complete this, but that can't be the most important thing. That's the reason why you show up. But then, once you're there, you have to be willing and able to say I may or may not get this today, because what I found would happen to me kev, this was most of my learning around. This really came with singing. On this album there was some of this with guitar too, a song like um uh I'm trying to remember the name helping hand helping hand was a song on guitar where it was like I tried.
Speaker 1:it wasn't working for whatever reason and I tried to rewrite it a bunch of times and try to come up with different guitar parts.
Speaker 1:But if, if I would come in and I was too settled on, like, okay, I need to get this done today, like this has gone on long enough, like sometimes that'll work for me, but most of the time what that ends up doing is it applies this level of stress and it gets me too preoccupied with just getting it done instead of can I slow down and let my awareness open up, hear it in ways I haven't heard it before, explore things that normally I wouldn't take the time to explore, to ask those better questions and to just say, okay, well, the same thing that I've been doing isn't working, so I have to do something else, but I don't know what that other thing is, so I have to leave some space here for me to find another thing and to not be too worried about.
Speaker 1:well, wow, that that idea sucks. Well, it's like yeah, I mean it might suck right now, but you can't get too focused on it just being great because you have to be willing to like. It's like learning your instrument for the first time.
Speaker 2:You're going to be terrible.
Speaker 1:So you have to be willing to be terrible to get good. So you have to be willing to be terrible to get good, and I think the same thing happens with performances and with writing is following the ideas, letting it be bad for a while, trusting that you're going to find your way and it's going to get good. Um, and not just. It's like you can have the best performance of a bad idea and at the, you'll be just as disappointed as you were when you started going well, ok, well, what's wrong? Like you know, maybe I went through and I edited and every word's perfectly in time and everything's perfectly in tune, and you know everything's enunciated and here it is. That's, that's supposed to be it, right, and you're going yeah, it's like polishing a turd, maybe a little bit, you know you only get so far with that Right.
Speaker 1:You have to be willing to like give yourself the time that you need and not get too focused on. This needs to be done today, or I just need to get this tracked when I stopped thinking about that part so hard and just let it be like, just let myself not be in go mode, just let myself be kind of in the moment. That's when things started really clicking. That's the irony. I started getting way more done, way more quickly and sending versions of like. There's a couple of the songs that made a huge turnaround. Helping hand was one of them. Uh, I forget what we're calling the other one um. Its working title was call me um and its final one was get real.
Speaker 2:Is it get real? No, that one wasn't the wheel right.
Speaker 1:Well, the, I don't know. For me the wheel didn't seem like that much of a challenge. But no, call Me is what I'm thinking of. I'm just trying to remember what its actual title ends up being. I think we were calling it Face the Sun. That was one that had a big turnaround of. We kind of had a thing demoed out and it was sort of close to what it ended up being and I kept recording versions of it.
Speaker 1:That was like a good version of that idea, but it kept still not really hitting yeah the way that it needed to, and it was by getting more in that headspace of really slowing down and being like, okay, it doesn't matter if it gets done today, I'm just gonna sing to sing, I'm going to explore, I'm going to try to find something. It led to some differences that really made those songs come alive, to where, when I sent it to you, it was immediately the response was oh yeah, no, that's it, that's it. It wasn't like oh yeah, it's good.
Speaker 1:It's good Like that's not the response you want. You want hell yeah, that's awesome. Oh man, I'm so excited. You know, that's what you want to hear.
Speaker 2:That's never yeah for anyone out there collaborating at all. If you're having to do this long distance like we are now, that's the worst kind of backhanded compliment, like yeah, it's good because that person's just reading the text, going it's good, yeah, it's. It's just good, yeah. Does he know that I just spent two days?
Speaker 1:yeah, you know working on this all day long to get it, yeah, and he's just said it's good, yeah, that one remember.
Speaker 2:I know there was another one, yeah, it's fine, the um, that one I remember.
Speaker 2:I know there was another one, yeah, it's fine. The Face. The Sun was definitely one. Tailspin was another one where I was very happy with all the iterations of that. It was like a song that no matter what you did singing-wise, you couldn't screw it up. Once you had initially shown me the first idea and I was locked in. Then it just anything that you decided to do to it just kept getting better. So but there was a point where I was like, do you really need to change anymore? This feels really good to me, but you were not satisfied with it and that I needed to respect and say there's something else that he's still looking for, that he's not found yet.
Speaker 2:So oftentimes there comes a time where you and I will might be in a difference of opinion and say I, I feel like what you gave me is great and I don't hear or sense the need for anything else. But you yourself, yourself, are like no, it's not there and it's not. I'm just not satisfied with the. I still it's almost there, but I need to keep finding it. And I know I found myself going.
Speaker 2:I got to trust them because ultimately, what happens is it comes back and you go okay, I found it. And when you send it back to me, it's always something that's like okay, that is definitely better than the other version, but it's hard because you're on that side of the mountain. You don't go like well, what if you know? Is this really going to be better? Is it going to end up getting better by the time? Remember, you've heard so many of your demos as you've gone through this process that you're just like you kind of lose sense of it. And sometimes, where you just lose sense of like a thousand percent do I really know that this is better.
Speaker 2:Was this 98?
Speaker 1:other than the original and now it's 99.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, and that that was. That was places for me where I'm like you've said, hey, let's give this a listen and see what you think. These are the changes I made, and oftentimes I would go and go all right, I need to hear this when I can really focus and give the right attention to it, so I can tell the difference between what this version was before and what he's asking me to listen to now and see. Okay, yeah, I do hear the variation he did and the phrasing is different and that I think, works a little better. Or he added a different harmony here and this really worked out really great.
Speaker 2:So there were definitely points there where, trying to be a listener, I needed to kind of slow down too and go okay, let me really sit with this, and sometimes it wasn't like I could give you an immediate response. I'm like I need a couple of days with it because I needed to unhear the demo and those are in songs where you drastically change the melody or something. There I'm like I just need to get the old thing out of my head and make room for the new.
Speaker 1:Well, it was the same for me, because a lot of times, by the time that I sent you that idea, I had lived with it for a couple of days because I'm going through that same process of going like I don't know if this is just different or if it's better, and that's an important question to ask, Like is it really better or is it just different?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And also realizing that diminishing returns set in on these things, you know sometimes we are splitting hairs.
Speaker 1:But I would also say it's especially if you're in a situation where you can record yourself and you're not worried about budget and time is being really honest with yourself and saying can I do better than this? Or is this the very we go on to do? Our next thing? It will be even better than this because you grow through the process, you get better with every new thing that you do. But I it's less about, I would just say, like being able to sit back and ask yourself is it really the best that I can do? And then there were times where I would think the answer was no, I can do better. And then you go and you work on it, you go, okay. No, actually that is the best that I can do.
Speaker 1:But other times you come up with something that's better and it's hard because it's not a. It's not a matter of right or wrong.
Speaker 1:You know we're talking about art and it's subjective and not only subjective, but it comes from a personal place, from within you that you can't articulate to other people, and so it's not like there's a a bullseye that is perceivable by other people, that like, when you hit it, you know you hit it, okay, good, check, move on. But I feel it as like a, an internal bullseye, like I know, when I have done something that feels like that was it, and when I do things to where it feels like, oh, that's so close, and then maybe I have to sit with it for a couple of days to figure out what, what isn't a bullseye about it.
Speaker 1:You know, that's that's the hard thing is reverse engineering it and going well what if this is good but not great, what is?
Speaker 2:not great about it. Yeah, yeah, I would say those are things that I I often told you a lot of this record. There are songs on here which feature heavier keyboards and things that are more in the front of it, but then there's a lot of things where I'm like I don't really want to put much else in there. I really want it just to sit in the back and not have a front seat and not be the focal, just to rather serve the song and the structure of the song. But even in doing that, it's like how you have to learn how to self edit in a really great way. Sometimes I will send everything in the kitchen sink to you like. Here here's 17 patches that I added to a loop. Uh, figure out which one you like. I don't know if you figured out you're you figure out what which one of these things?
Speaker 2:do my job for me yeah, I just played a whole bunch of stuff for you and uh, I promise there's gold in here but, you, you're going to go and do the digging and I think you, you really helped me to go.
Speaker 2:You know what's the one part that you really want more than anything, and let's work around that. And those things are hard. They're hard lessons, but there are something that we've done this so many times where we'll overwrite only to go back and go cut all that crap out. None of that's necessary. This song is this and it's that's a. That's such I.
Speaker 2:If you don't have the patience and resilience to work through those moments, you're not going to be successful as a songwriter or even successful in the sense of a collaborative partner, because I think a lot of it is learning the ability to self-edit yourself and go yeah, some of this is is pretentious or redundant or not necessary to the song. What are we really trying to say here? And those things evolve over the time. Like I said, a lot of these songs I would say half the record we've written has been four or five years for the songs that started the genesis of that song, versus all the way to now. So, though, those things have evolved dozens of times and you just have to have the patience.
Speaker 2:Yes, sometimes it's incredibly frustrating because you're like this isn't getting anywhere. Why do we keep working on this stupid song, but one or the other of us believe in it, so there's also a piece of like. I want to see it through for my partner and make sure that we've at least gotten this as fully realized as we can, even though maybe I'm not fully bought into it. And what always happens in that space? By the time we make it to the other side, we're like, oh, this song kicks ass, this is really great, and I'm like I didn't. I didn't see it, and you're like I did, though that's why I just appreciate you trusting me, because, yeah, I did see it, I did feel it or sense that it was gonna be this. We just hadn't found a way to tap into that yet.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a big value add of having someone to work with is that you can kind of be honest in moments where you're like, look, I don't have it out for this song.
Speaker 2:It's not like I want it to get cut, but I also don't know what to do with it, and I'm not hearing what you're hearing.
Speaker 1:Feel free to take the lead you know, and then sometimes just one idea or one twist on it can open the floodgates for what it can be, and that can be a really special moment where you know something gets redeemed, and we had a few like that on this record. I think, yeah, this yes record, I think yeah, um, but going back to something that you you mentioned is like you talked about being able to to record a bunch of tracks and then basically say hey, you know, take your pick and, in theory, that seems
Speaker 1:great, and this was kind of the conversation that we had. Um, what what was really important to me is going like, look, I'm not the czar of this band, I'm not the dictator here who gets to choose every movement that gets happened. I want this to be as much your thing as it is my thing, as much your thing as it is my thing, and, yeah, I might be the one who you know in our situation. I'm the one who is, you know, doing the sessions and logic and I have all the files and you know, mixing the record. But it's like it going. It just kind of ties back into what we were talking about before. Almost is saying like you have to ask yourself the tough question. So anybody could sit down, I think, and sketch out like, all right, give me 10 takes, I'm going to do 10 different things and play ideas. You know, spaghetti at the wall. It's a different thing to then like, okay, gun to your head. Which part do you like the best?
Speaker 1:oh well, now I freeze up because I haven't thought about it.
Speaker 1:That hard and I haven't really, I haven't asked myself those questions. I need to ask myself to be able to give you an answer to that. And so it's easier sometimes, I think to, to get the opinion of someone else because, like, if we were in the garage together, one of those 10 things that you played would have perked my ears up and I went and went. Number seven, that's great. Develop, that that's really cool. And you would have trusted me and been like, oh okay, yeah, let's do that. Or vice versa.
Speaker 1:Right, when we don't have each other there, you have to ask yourself that question and you have to ultimately put forth the idea that you think is best. And that's scary, because saying this is what I think is best, I might disagree. That puts you in a position, or me in a position, to have to, you know, sacrifice our ego a little bit or go back to the drawing board and be frustrated, maybe. But it's like I want to know that the part that we put forward is the part you really believe in, because it connects with some part of you that, like it resonates with you in a way that maybe the other parts don't that matters. I believe that that makes the art better. You're more deeply connected to it when it's that way, and it might mean some other things need to change, or it might mean that now we get into a discussion about how that idea is presented. Right, it's like maybe the notes are great, but maybe we could tweak the sound a little bit to fit the production better, or whatever right.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But having to put yourself in that situation to really stand by what you're doing, you know like stand on your business and it's so um, it's like you're having conversation with yourself.
Speaker 2:It's like, well, I don't know, kevin, what do you like that part, or did you like part 12?
Speaker 1:I don't know what are you planning to do. You know like what, and so you're yeah, yeah, that's exactly what it is you're talking.
Speaker 2:You, literally, are talking to yourself yeah and going. And then there's also the pieces of like what do you think jay's gonna like? I don't know man, what, what do you think he's going to like? Well, I like the piano and I feel like he's going to lean in that. Yeah, but that really cool synth pad though that's really sexy in the chorus.
Speaker 1:And you just spent $200 on this other virtual instrument. Don't you want to use that instead? I feel like that thing that I just spent money on needs to have a feature in here to justify the cost.
Speaker 2:That's real. So should I send them both? And then you go. You know what? I just have to trust that the thing that I do send is the thing, that's the right thing. And if he comes back and says that was great, that's exactly what we need. I do think that there might be room for something else. Then I that was great, that's exactly what we need. I do think that there might be room for something else. Then I go great, Let me go ahead and send you that something else that I've already done, and see if that works for you or if it spawns something else. A lot of times, like you mentioned before, it's very much like a tennis match in a way, but it's one that we're not keeping score with each other. In that sense, it's like I'm following the ball back to you and you go wow, this ball is even more impressive than it was when I sent it to you. Okay, I'm going to put a little juice on that and I'm going to fire it back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's got to be a joke in there somewhere.
Speaker 2:There's a joke in there somewhere, but joke in there, but I'm gonna leave it. Yeah, we'll leave that alone for another time. Um, we'll call it, uh, sonic alchemy after dark. Um, yeah, there you go, yeah, but, um, I I do that anyway to to to, to kind of bow tie, some of all this stuff. It's like we have a great collaborative relationship. We've worked a lot together personally, so the distance hasn't been as impactful, although there's certainly pros and cons to everything. Our efficiency leveled up. We certainly got better as, uh, musicians and in engineers. I would call you the engineer and an assistant for myself. Um, so we've definitely brushed up in a lot of those things and we leveled up a lot as players and you're having to engineer the sounds that that you're putting on the record.
Speaker 1:So I mean you've had to pick up a lot of that responsibility of listening critically and being like how do I get the right sound?
Speaker 2:oh yeah, and learning a whole new you know digital audio workstation. In the middle of that, with ableton, I went back and I I really have used Ableton in the past. Ableton's a really great piece of software that I've loved from past. I was back into Logic with you early on and so I said Logic's great. But there's something about Ableton that I really appreciated that helps me write ideas faster than Logic does, and it was just a different tool, but it was still learning those things and kind of getting through that stuff as well.
Speaker 2:So all that to say is it's a journey, but, like I mean it if you're really committed to wanting to put out something into the world that you both really love. It's a journey and it takes time and you have to realize there are gonna be be moments where the other person is not going to respond the way that you hope they would to a part, because maybe they're hearing something differently, or maybe they've just not, or you're challenging their ear in a way that could be good, but it may take them a while to sit with it. So you have to be confident in your ideas.
Speaker 1:They just may be fatigued from so many ideas over such a long period.
Speaker 2:They could go okay. I don't know, Maybe it's good, Maybe it isn't.
Speaker 1:It's like great another idea Awesome, yeah, I remember sending. We don't have enough of those already.
Speaker 2:Sending you and we laugh about it too, about validation, but there's an important part of that too. It's like we often share ideas with each other, in a way, just to say, is this something that gets the juices flowing, is this something that you feel like you would want to hear if it were on the radio or whatever? Right? And if it is, then maybe it's worth exploring sometimes. But if it isn't, it doesn't mean it's not worth exploring, it just means that maybe it didn't resonate with you in that moment. I've gone back and played demos for you that we've worked on together, or myself, five, six, seven, eight years ago, and you're like, oh, that's a really cool idea. And I'm like, dude, that thing was 2014.
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah. Last time I played it for you, you said this sucked, this was, this was like yeah.
Speaker 2:I got the text thread right here.
Speaker 1:It says yeah, okay, keep trying, it's like what Tom Petty song was, a hit that I think Rick Rubin was like. I don't like that song.
Speaker 2:And then they pulled it out again. Yeah, pulled it out again later, and it was like oh, this is awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like you never heard it.
Speaker 2:You SOB. I Like you never heard it, you SOB I played that for you. It was one of the first tracks I played. It was a demo and you're like, let's see what else you got and you come back to that and you're like dude, this is amazing.
Speaker 1:I don't recall this one. I love that story. That's such a great story.
Speaker 2:And you probably knew.
Speaker 1:But it's true, I'm sure you did. But it's true, it strikes you a different way. That's the point. It's like the mood that you're in on a given day, the other things you're listening to, where your inspiration levels are all of those things have to do with how you interpret an idea, isn't it's tough?
Speaker 1:because, like you said, I mean for us there is something validating about the other person getting excited or being into the idea that you have produced barometer always on if the idea is truly good or not, because I mean, it's a moving target on what I'm going to be into and my temperament changes day to day you know, uh, believe it or not, I can be a flighty musician type, Uh and so also. I might feel the most conviction about something one day and the next day I'm like we should do the exact opposite of everything I've ever done or believed in.
Speaker 2:I'm really into folk now and I really want to do electro folk. You're like totally. What? Yeah, we were just doing a rock band man. No, we're going to do organ metal now.
Speaker 1:No, I'm giving up on all that. I'm giving up on all that. I'm giving up on all that. It's time to do something ridiculous yeah no, but I mean there there's, it's true, right, it's like there's probably an art in and of itself to bringing up an idea in the most opportune time, to where it hits its mark you know. So maybe that's a topic for another time, but you know it does get me thinking. That's like.
Speaker 1:I mean you just can't control all those variables, so you just have to work through it and if you believe in it, you have to stand by it and you'll have another opportunity to bring it up. You know, I think that's probably the the. The better way to think about all this, yeah, is stick to your guns. If you believe in it and now is not the right time stash it keep it for later.
Speaker 2:there was a just kind of put a, put a stamp on that too. There was a. I wrote the, our first single. We talked about this on a couple of other podcasts um, take the flame.
Speaker 2:And there was always something from listening to records recent like ghost or or something. They'll do this really cool introduction before the song, like a prelude, if you will. Before the song and always in the back of my head, I was like I'm going to write one, I'm going to write one for this thing. We had started doing stuff like that on this EP and the sort of metal-esque stuff that we were doing, and I was like there's parts of me that really enjoy that, where there's a little bit of an instrumental thing that leads into a song, and that was something that I was like I'm really passionate about this, but I don't have anything good yet. I don't have anything yet that I want to say.
Speaker 2:That was another one of the last things that ended up on the record was saying, okay, I think I finally found something and you helping me through that process and like, okay, I'm with you, I do like the idea of it, but I needed to get something that could get across the finish line with you and say, hey, I don't want this to just be some dribble, I want it to be purposeful.
Speaker 2:I want you to hear this and see could this work? And if so, great. And I'll keep exploring it because I do believe in it. But if we don't feel like it's going to be there or it's unnecessary, then let's scrap it. And being able to be open to those ideas and say, yeah, okay, I get it, it is good and that definitely works, even though it may be something that some people might fast forward and go let me just get to the song. That's your prerogative to do that, but for me it was something that I believed in and I felt was necessary. Sometimes you go no, I want this solo to be three and a half minutes long Great.
Speaker 1:Because you're feeling it.
Speaker 2:That's what you feel like. I don't want. I don't want to dictate things just necessarily for what an audience that we have yet to hear said record. I don't want to get too much into that space. It's like I was going to say earlier. You know movies, sometimes big blockbuster movies. They'll run them through test audience after test audience to see what thing clicks.
Speaker 2:Oh was this scene funny, did everyone laugh and everyone's having to make notes and write a survey about it? And it's like when you know that that happens, it's like what's the fun in the movie anymore, part of the excitement about it. And I get it when there's hundreds of millions of dollars or whatever and people are freaking out about stuff like that and all the franchising stuff that comes with some of these big movies. But you water it down so much because you've had so many different people give their opinion about a thing that you're not even doing it anymore for the sake of what joy it brings to you. But rather am I serving the end result of a fickle audience sometimes that may or may not really understand or like what you're trying to say.
Speaker 2:And it's like there's no art in that anymore, it just becomes commerce. Trying to say and it's like there's no art in that anymore, it just becomes commerce. And commerce isn't necessarily anything. That for us at this point we certainly haven't made any money in this venture it's pro, it's purely for the purely for the art of it. All you know that's.
Speaker 1:Trust me, I want to make money. Don't we say that out loud.
Speaker 2:You know I would like to make something profitable, sure, but only people enjoy it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, that's the thing. Right Is like if your objective is just to make something that's profitable, then you stack the deck in your um and art sometimes is and sometimes isn't um, and if you want to make art, you have to be okay with that, like it doesn't matter if someone is gonna you know, this is gonna sell 100. It's like, is it something that's genuine and representative of me and what.
Speaker 1:I, you know, stand for and what I love and what I want to see more of in the world. Um, so they're. They're like two different things, I think, and too often they get talked about like they're the same thing. Um, but yeah, anyway, they're the same thing. Um, but yeah, anyway. Yeah, it's all very, very interesting to think about. And uh, man, I know, like, I just feel like the amount that I leveled up through the process of of getting these songs together, like obviously over six years, you would assume that you get better, but man, it's, I feel like it's night and day yeah I really do like our ability to get sounds, to write a good song, to get to the heart of things, that that we need to get, to get get good performances.
Speaker 1:All of that has been, uh, one of the hardest things that I've ever had to do I think, you know, I know, I mean, there were moments that I was really just feeling like I have no idea how we're ever going to get this done. But I stand and look at it now and I have a lot of gratitude because I think what we created is really special and really amazing, and I'm sure other people will hear that too. But you know, I would just say to you that I'm grateful for your, your partnership in this and our ability to work together to create something like this Cause.
Speaker 1:I mean, it really is the almost outside of my family. The only thing that I care about is making music and art, so it's it's a really special experience.
Speaker 2:Without getting too heady about it. There is so many moments along the way in these six years where we needed each other and we needed the music to be able to be a filter for us, for personal things, for professional things, all of that stuff and it served itself so well. But what's most precious to me about it is that it's the sense of accomplishment and the brotherhood that comes with it. And we couldn't have done it. I couldn't have done it, Certainly on my own. I'd be too lazy to no same.
Speaker 2:But us working together in that space and keep pushing each other by sending ideas, by challenging each other, by continuing to keep the conversations going, allow this to get to a space now where we can talk about this and with such excitement, like I'm really excited for everyone out there to get to hear it.
Speaker 2:You know, and and again, of course we hope that you enjoy it. But we understand, maybe it's not your cup of tea, that's okay too, but we we do really hope and appreciate that some of the work and some of the things we talked about on these podcasts will resonate when you hear it. If you're a musician or you're in a band or you're trying to write or you collaborate, you hear some of the things we talked about. You hear that reflected in the song and you go okay, I get it. I get what they're talking about and I have a newfound respect for it because I understand kind of what they had to do behind the scenes to get there, and that, to me, is just as important. You know, ultimately you put the record on, you listen to it and you're inspired by it and it makes you want to go write music and put your music out into the world. Then we've done our job and that I'll stand by.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Love it. Well, let's sign off on that. I mean, that was very well said. If you want to check out our band, the silver echo, you can find us on all the streaming platforms silver echocom for all latest updates and all of our links and everything are on there. Of course, the podcast is the sonic alchemy, so we have a website for that as well. Reach out if you have an idea for the show. You want to be on the show, want someone else to be on the show, all those kind of things. And yeah, we appreciate you listening to this point. We'll see you on the next episode.
Speaker 2:Thank you all so much Take care.