The Sonic Alchemy
Welcome to Sonic Alchemy, the ultimate podcast for creatives looking to elevate their craft and gain insider insights into the world of artistry. Hosted by Justin Webster and Kevin Crouch of the band The Silver Echo, this engaging show provides a dynamic platform to showcase artists and delve into the myriad skills and layers that contribute to a successful creative career.
Each episode of Sonic Alchemy offers a blend of captivating interviews and insightful discussions. Our interviews feature a diverse array of artists who share their unique journeys, techniques, and sources of inspiration. These conversations provide listeners with a rare glimpse into the personal and professional experiences that shape creative success.
In addition to interviews, Justin and Kevin host thought-provoking discussions on various topics relevant to creatives. These episodes explore everything from honing specific skills and overcoming creative blocks to navigating the business side of art and staying inspired in a rapidly changing world.
Discover how successful artists overcome challenges and find their voice.
Gain practical advice on developing skills, managing a creative career, and staying motivated.
Connect with a community of passionate creatives who are dedicated to their craft.
Sonic Alchemy is more than a podcast; it's a journey into the heart of creativity. Join Justin and Kevin as they uncover the alchemical process that turns passion into artistry and artistry into success. Whether you're an aspiring artist or an established creator, Sonic Alchemy offers the insights and inspiration you need to thrive.
Tune in and transform your creative potential into gold with Sonic Alchemy!
The Sonic Alchemy
When Metal Reigned Supreme: Iconic Albums Revisited
Ever wondered which metal albums have stood the test of time and why? Join us as we break down the monumental influence of Metallica's Black Album, Megadeth's Rust in Peace, Pantera's Cowboys from Hell, and Slayer's Seasons in the Abyss. Listen as we travel back to the '90s, reminiscing on how these iconic albums were initially received and their everlasting impact on the genre. Plus, get ready for a heated debate as we rank the guitar legends from these bands, showcasing our personal favorites and their legendary riffs.
Get inside the minds of metal's guitar heroes in our detailed discussion on the evolution of metal guitar solos. From the wild, chromatic chaos of early solos to the intricate, technically superior licks of legends like Marty Friedman and Dimebag Darrell, we explore it all. We also shine a light on the often-overlooked prowess of Dave Mustaine and the divisive yet influential style of Kirk Hammett. Reflect on the legacy left by Pantera after the tragic loss of key members, and the shift from hair metal to heavier sounds in the late '80s and early '90s, driven by the changing priorities of record labels.
What happens when a band's sound evolves? We dissect Metallica's bold shift during the "Black Album" era, comparing it to Avenged Sevenfold's stylistic changes in "Hail to the King." Discover the challenges bands face in balancing artistic growth with fan expectations, and enjoy our deep dive into the transformative journeys of Slayer and Pantera. We wrap up with a celebration of Megadeth and Metallica's recent return to thrash metal roots, appreciating their resilience and continued relevance in the ever-changing landscape of metal music. You won't want to miss this episode!
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what is up? What is up?
Speaker 2:what is up?
Speaker 1:it's a beautiful day yeah, we are.
Speaker 2:Uh, we are alive. It's cooler. Thank the lord. Uh, man, it's been hot. I know you and I were just chatting about that.
Speaker 1:It's stupid yeah, we were supposed to shoot this the other day and I had to call it off. I'm like dude, it is so hot in my apartment, like absurdly hot, yeah. So I think from now on, probably mornings are going to be smart for us during the summertime.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it makes more sense, especially in an apartment where you don't have really hardly any AC at all.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I have zero AC. I've got windows and all they do is let hot air in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know it sounds like a first world problem, but man, it was brutal here last week, especially getting the AC fix Like we're just sitting in the house. Oh yeah, I forgot about that In a pool of sweat and it was awful I know what that's like.
Speaker 1:Awful. And my freezer in my kitchen is so small, especially because, like again, another like weird, weird, maybe unrelatable problem, but zeke, my dog won't eat normal dog food, so we've got him on farmer's dog like that raw food stuff, right. Right, problem is it comes to you frozen. It needs to stay frozen until it's ready to be thawed and fed. So almost our entire freezer is packed with dog food every day, so we don't even have room for like bags of ice, right, so I wish I could show you. It's back there in the kitchen. Like sitting in the middle of my kitchen is an igloo. Uh, what do they call those?
Speaker 1:like a ice, uh, I'm blanking on it like an ice chest yeah yeah yeah we went to target and got a little one that'll keep eyes for like a day, if you're lucky right, yeah so we just go like every couple of days, go buy a bag of ice, put it in the little igloo and we make our drinks and stuff our iced tea or whatever to try to stay cool. I can see Michaela coming home the problem quickly be.
Speaker 2:Oh, just saying, like your head is in there, like a pelican, or not a pelican, but a flamingo, like your whole head is. Yeah, flamingo, yeah, whatever. Whatever that stupid bird is, your whole head is just buried in it. You know? Ass up in the air, yeah.
Speaker 1:Head inside the inside, yeah, just buried, exactly. Yeah, well, that was me the other night. I'm sitting in front of the fridge looking in there and mckayla's like oh sorry, I need to get in there. I'm like it's all right, I'm, I'm just using it as ac right now, just do you want?
Speaker 2:to come join probably ruining all of our food. Yeah, just sit here for a minute.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just need like two minutes to pretend that I remember what it's like to be chilly at least you got the truck now you can go sit in there.
Speaker 2:That's also something I ended up doing and I've had to do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, on some of those days, man, it's like just go out there and get 20 minutes of driving around the block and some reprieve from the, from all the heat you know, oh yeah totally crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy.
Speaker 2:Well, I know you and I have talked a lot about this particular episode. I was really excited about this one. Um, we initially talked about, you know, and we've jokingly talked about this quite a bit, because we both have had our own opinions about the, the black album from metallica and I often, when we were talking about this whole podcast we were talking, I said in one of the ideas that we wrote down, I was like, maybe we do something where it's rust and peace from mega death versus the black album, and thinking about, yeah, you know, what's more influential, what holds up still, what do metal fans really think of these records, both then, at their moment in time, when they first encountered those albums, and what do they think about them now? Yeah, you know, um, I often, I think for many, many years, planted the flag that I just absolutely couldn't stand the Black Album, and I've come around as.
Speaker 2:I've gotten older to appreciate what they did and why they did it.
Speaker 1:That's probably spoken like someone from your generation, though, yeah, I think so.
Speaker 2:I think so Because I really did love their first four albums and it was really hard. It was a pretty big departure from that. So but then then it kind of occurred to me as I was doing a little bit of research around those two records of course they didn't necessarily come out in the exact same year, they came out about 12 months apart, or just shy of 12 months apart from one another. But then I also realized that there were two other pretty influential albums that came out for metal fans or just hard rock in general, and that was Pantera's Cowboys from Hell and Slayer's Seasons in the Abyss. And I thought, man, these are four records that I know, 90 to 91. That's a hot year and you have four incredibly influential bands in in specific in those genres so hot right now slayer, so hot right now sorry, I can't help it
Speaker 2:yeah, but they they many consider, in whatever camp you may fall, or if all of the camps right, consider those four records to be the apex for a lot of their work. Um, and so I thought it'd be fun to kind of talk through our own way of discovery for those albums, because I know we've all listened to those albums over the course of our life and, um, maybe just talk about how they hold up now, what you find to be your favorite I I honestly want to know of guitar players for you. Like who, how would you rank the guitar players in these bands on your favorite, Like that's not even a question, Kev there is.
Speaker 1:There is only Marty there is only Marty.
Speaker 2:There's only Marty. But you're putting there's only Marty, you got Daryl, I mean. So anyway, we can get to that, that's true, yeah, I forgot.
Speaker 1:I forgot that we're talking about Pantera too. Yeah. Yeah, that true, yeah, I forgot. I forgot that we're talking about pantera too yeah, uh yeah, that does make it tougher.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, clearly, every one of those records has amazing guitar work on it. Um, from every band like there's, there's no question. But I think for me, marty is the one who is like I don't know, but but dime is like that too, dime. Dime always feels like the, the metal. Eddie van halen, which is so cool to me, like the way that he plays, has that same sort of, uh, freedom and reckless abandon, but it's always somehow perfect, you know, which I think is amazing. But marty, his work with mega death is. I just I guess I never heard anyone play like dime either, but I think marty's work is the one that feels the most foreign. Like when I hear dime, I feel like I hear vocabulary that I'm kind of familiar with. That's not to say that he sounds like other people or that you know that he doesn't have a unique sound, because you know that would be false. Yeah, but marty's work always seemed like I just never knew it to expect from what he was going to play.
Speaker 2:Uh, I always thought that was really cool I think about that, because you think about, of course that's that's looking at more from a lead perspective, but you know, true, but also we talked about this too, which I think jeff hanneman and um carrie king kind of fall into. When we think about metal solos, and I'll say, prior to even these four records as well, it was always this sort of, uh, wild abandoned, chromatic kind of thing that was just screechy and wow the notes didn't matter.
Speaker 1:It didn't matter as much as the feeling matters it was more about creating chaos and tension, which is how I played a lot like when I was coming up uh, like high school metal bands trying to write a solo. That was pretty much all I tried to do was that kind of solo. Right, it's like how can I just? Create mayhem in this section it doesn't even have to be that good. It just needs to make you feel like whoo, yeah, all right yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, almost a sense of unease I don't know if that's what those guys were thinking about, but that's how I felt about it yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think in seeing them now and that's what you when you mention, when you mention marty and certainly dime bag well, I think both of them sort of brought this sort of technical finesse but also their own very unique voice to that. But I agree, like when I first heard Russ and Peace, I'm hearing the solos on those records and by that point I kind of knew Dave's style, because he also needs to be part of this equation if you're thinking about soloist, because he is a lead player as well, aside from the fact that he can write riffs for days very underrated too, very underrated in his ability to play lead right. And then people again, because he has always had such virtuosic guitar players in his band people often forget that he himself is also a great, great lead player. But I was used to sort of how his style is, which is exactly kind of what we're talking about this sort of screechy, chromatic things that that'll often metal, that was associated with a metal solo.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but the first time I hear bass stuff in there too, yeah yeah like kind of blues meets chaos at times.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but the first time I hear like holy wars or, uh, hanger 18, and I hear the solos in that, I'm like whoa, oh yeah, whoa, what is this, you know? Um, it was quite a bit different. And similarly, again thinking about like cowboys from hell, art of shredding and some of these songs, like they are incredibly focused and have a really unique approach over metal heavy riffs yeah, you know, I know, I'm not talking about kurt and I know we'll get to we'll get to that too, but his he also has his thing and there's certainly a voice to him as well.
Speaker 2:That has often been parodied. I will still be guilty of saying that I'm not an enormous fan. I'm sure I'll get a lot of people to disagree or agree. It's very controversial talking about Kurt Hammett, but again, look who am I to critique? He's been doing this for a long time. It's his voice, it's how he chooses to play. I'm not necessarily a fan of it.
Speaker 1:Metallica doesn't become. Yeah, Well, I think if Metallica doesn't become Metallica, they don't become the biggest band, you know, maybe of all time. Then I think there's probably not as much scrutiny over his playing. Yeah, potentially.
Speaker 1:I have a similar feeling to you at this point. You know, I like early Kirk stuff and I don't know if there was a, and I mean I'm I'm just pulling stuff out of my ass at this point but I don't know if maybe the influence of Cliff in the band helps support Kirk's ideas a little bit more. Yeah, it probably isn't improv, but it has, uh, it has that feeling of just sort of improvisation, uh, improv, yeah, Improvised solos, Um, whereas I'm thinking about earlier Metallica, it felt like in a lot of those songs there was more um, like they were I don't know if crafted is the right word, but there was a little more composition perhaps in the solos. And I think about, like you know, we've talked about fade to black before.
Speaker 1:If I'm remembering right, that was the first Metallica song that I ever heard. I mean, that song has great guitar solos in it and really beautiful parts. So you have like the master of puppets solo, you know, really like beautiful harmony and it's melodic and then gets into the real chaotic stuff and that's some of what I miss with more modern Metallica is a little more of that melody that I don't feel they lean into quite as much. Guitar wise, yeah, Um, but yeah, Kirk will always have a special place for me, but he's also a player that I feel like my taste have evolved beyond a little bit with a lot of the stuff that they put out more recently. Yeah, but damn, there's still a great band 's no doubt about that. No, and that I think that was when them last year was amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah to know that they've been able to do that for 40 years in their career. I think for any of them to be very honest and I know obviously with the passing of the brothers in pantera, that's a different thing. But even being able to see, yeah, see sort of a re-evolution of that, and having those two, charlie and Zach, just kind of stepping in and trying to really recreate, faithfully as much as they could, the sound of Pantera with the other two remaining members, I still think that's a beautiful homage to them, without necessarily being mimicry, if you will, but just a a great way to tip their hat to people that they obviously loved and admired. You know, um, yeah, think about the not to shift gears at all, but I'm thinking let's go back to. I'm assuming for you, black album would have been the first iteration of all of those four, your first sort of introduction to them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. So tell me a little bit about how did that come to be?
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know if the Black Album specifically, but Metallica was my first of those four bands. Yeah, if that makes sense. But this goes to a back to a story that I shared on one of our earlier episodes, so I'll keep it short. Uh, but when I was a freshman, there was a kid who went to the like I forget what you call it. It's like one of those the bad kid school next to the good kid school, like when you sure get in trouble too many times and they say fine, this is your last shot before you're out of the system. Uh, there was this guy named cricket. Um, still don't know his real name I probably never will.
Speaker 1:His name is cricket yeah, it feels so extra funny to me now, having seen sunny it's always sunny in philadelphia.
Speaker 1:Yeah, shot off to cricket because, uh, yeah, there are some parallels there a little bit, uh. But anyway, this he was like a punk rock kid, way taller than me, um, and he was. I thought he was a really cool guy, yeah, and we're hanging out one day and he gives me a mix cd that has. I had no idea what was even on it, like there was no track list. So I'm discovering these bands without having no idea who they even are and then having to circle back with him and find him be like dude, who, who is it? What is this? And there was, uh, fade to black was on there. Uh, I'm pretty sure inner sandman was on there. Uh, there was ozzy. Uh, mama, I'm coming home, oh, for some reason okay, okay, uh, you had santoria from sublime.
Speaker 1:Uh, you had I forget there was a handful of others, but that was my introduction into metallica. I remember fade to black came on and I was kind of famous for this anyway. But I I never paid attention in class hardly ever, if I get away with it and so I remember being in my history class, social studies, whatever it was in freshman year. That was probably like American or world history maybe yeah, I think, world history and so most of the time I'd be in the back of the class with my.
Speaker 1:This is back when I would carry a uh disc man at a Sony uh, portable, you know, disc man player, uh, uh, and, and some of those wraparound headphones so they didn't mess up my hair. That was important. I had to have that, yeah, uh. So they were the kind that like hook over the ear and then wrap around the back instead of going on the top and I'd just be in class listening to music.
Speaker 1:And I remember finding that song and it probably did not leave repeat for weeks, I would think like it was. It felt like drugs to me, like I would basically hallucinate listening to this song. It was so cool I'd never heard anything like it before, right, right. So that that was my, my way of kind of stepping in and finding Metallica, um, and then kind of realizing like, oh, some of these songs I didn't know who the band was or or that all of these songs were from that band, but I did start to piece some things together. I remember I don't even know how I got into it, but there's a real deep cut that I think was part of mission impossible to something like that. Uh, that they did called I disappear.
Speaker 1:And and yeah I go back every once in a while and check that it's still a really cool song yeah it came out during a period with that band where people weren't super high on metallica, um, so it gets glossed over, and it was a movie soundtrack song, uh, but that's a, that's a cool track. I remember that one being big for me around that time too. Yeah, because this is still during the days of limewire. I didn't have metallic at home, yeah, and I didn't have any friends that I knew of who had any of this kind of stuff. So you know you're going on there searching limewire wherever, trying to download whatever you can find, uh, and I was completely oblivious to uh, to to Lars whole, yeah, uh, I said Lars is going to come to your house and kick your ass right now.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, yeah. I bought enough of the records now Hopefully he'll he'll give me a pass. Yeah, we paid back, just a kid trying to get it. However, I could you know? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Did, did you? How did you hear metallica? Oh wow, um, I think it's through the same sort of way. I think high school certainly we're talking. My high school year is probably from 86 to 90, something like that, or 87 to 90. Yeah, so I'm still in the hard rock, hair metal bands that were out and just blowing up mtv and I'm kind of absorbing anything and everything that I feel like I could get. But I think there was also a natural sort of exhaustion of hair metal for me where I'm like it feels like the same thing over and over. Um, totally, you know, know not to not to speak about, because I still love quite a bit of those bands. But I think at a point it started feeling more like a record label was telling them you're going to release a ballad, you're going to release this kind of party song, you're going to release this thing, and it just all started to feel very homogenized to me.
Speaker 1:So I'm like I want, so I'm like, isn't that what happens, right? Yeah, with any good thing gets popular, and then yeah, and then the business side is to figure out how to make money with it.
Speaker 2:You, know, and so you start seeing so much of the heydays of a and r, right, I think this is still where they're really actively chasing the next whomever. So yeah for me. I just wanted to get another layer down in the subway and I'm like, okay, I'm looking for something else to be a bit more exciting, I think what probably started it? If and I could be wrong, I'll be fuzzy about this, but I think I saw the one video on mtv and, oh, okay, I was like, so you got in.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, injustice yeah, I I would say that's fair. I'm not going to be one to go and claim that I had kill them all and master and all that stuff initially. I'm not doing that. I don't think that's true.
Speaker 2:I think I probably came into metallica earnestly through seeing the one video and then going, wow, this is incredible. Um, I wanted to get that record. So I'm pretty sure I bought that album and I think I, I feel like I bought the two of that album and master puppets together. So I basically had a double shot, a double shot of two, two of those albums. Of course they were on at that point and justice for all is is kind of, you know, they're getting a little bit of that mtv push because of the one one uh video. So I started really listening to that record a lot and then going back and listening to Master of Puppets as well. So those, those two albums are on repeat for a long time.
Speaker 2:And then I think over that time, of course, my friends, people that I was hanging out with a lot, we were all kind of in the same place. We would all just sort of pass music around and I said, hey, you gotta check this record out and they would go listen to it and they're like, hey, what did you get? Ride the Lightning? And I'm like, no, I haven't heard that yet. Then I see a kid at school with the, with the shirt you know the album cover. I'm like, okay, I have to, you know. So, as you're learning and having new friends and you're starting to change, that is my favorite Metallica record.
Speaker 2:Ride the Lightning. It's a great favorite. Yeah, that's a great, great album. It's my favorite. I think I listened to all of them. Then, kind of in that same year, that Injustice came out and just sort of absorbed all of it. So I was way into the band. But it all kind of came as a flood really, starting from the one video and I went backwards and I just listened to all of it, all of it really at the same time and of course I'm eagerly anticipating what's going to come next. But they unlocked a door for me and you know I've always loved heavier stuff, but I would I would be remiss if I didn't say, yeah, I think they unlocked the door for me to listen to metal bands, thrash metal bands, metal bands in general. So once I realized, okay, I have a love of this, I want to know more who other artists out here that kind of are doing the same thing, that opened the door for me, and I think with any of us I'm also one to.
Speaker 2:I love to do research and when I go into a band and I really start to find a love with them, I'm finding anything and everything I can about them, right, and I go, oh, who is this guy? Dave, dave Mustaine? Oh, he's no longer in the band anymore, right? But oh, he has a new band as well. So then that that turns the. You know, that opens the door to mega death, probably.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my, this will be a funny little story, but I think my introduction to them came because I believe the intro music to mtv news used the bass riff from peace cells as sort of their intro music to mtv news. So every time I'd hear that I was like, oh, I love that little lick. And then once I finally discovered that song, I'm like, oh my god, okay, cool, I'm also watching headbangers ball at this point on mtv. So I'm also getting introduced to some more heavier bands. They had also started shifting away a little bit from hair metal into more heavier artists. So, yeah, I'm thinking probably 88 to 90. That period for me became a lot. It was heavy music period, whomever the artist would be Anthraxayer, megadeth, metallica, pantera, um, they're all kind of coming out and I just wanted more and more and more as I got very similar.
Speaker 2:He said it's like a drug. Yeah, testament also in there. I'm like, oh, I need to hear more of this. And I had a close friend. Of course he's a guitar player. So then we go way deep into like yngwie and like cacophony, yeah, and racer x and all these like really guitar driven great bands that are in this in the sub sub sub genre. So, yeah, it was a big discovery for me during the those couple years, for sure, and waiting to hear that's fascinating what's next from the one who sort of opened the door for me. So I'm like, oh my god, I can't wait.
Speaker 2:I'm hearing this talk that metallic is going to come out with a record, but it's been a minute. I've listened to everything they've ever done. Now, by this point, you know even their little b-sides. You go and buy a b-side cassette or, and it would have like bread fan or something on there that was a cover that they have done, or, um, a misfits cover or something like that. I'm like, oh my god, this is, you know this. This is the best band. Like, oh my God, this is, you know this. This is the best band in the world to me at this moment. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:And then the black album comes out. Um, and I I think I probably said what, what the heck is this? What is, what is this? Is I'm you? What the heck is this? What is? What is this is I'm? You know, I'm used to seven minute long songs like and justice for all, like, yeah, I'm like. This doesn't feel it was heavy, I think, but it certainly felt like wait a minute, are we aiming for the fences here? But simpler, oh absolutely simpler, and I think I don't know where my frustration initially rose from that, or I was just getting to a point where it was. I felt like, oh, you're getting one video after another now on mtv. What is going on? Or have you sold out, like the, you know, did? You sell out here like what's happening when you're younger.
Speaker 1:You take all that stuff really personally too. Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I'm like what happened to my band, like what is this, you know yeah. They got body snatched.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what is happening.
Speaker 2:And the sound. It was not thrash anymore. Right, you know if you're really thinking of metallica as a thrash metal band and I would say they would be um, by that point that's no longer in existence. Really. You have heavier songs, like holier than thou, of course you know. Yeah, that feel a little back to sort of what they had been doing, so that felt a little familiar but it's still really different yeah, but you're hearing like sad but true, or you know some of those songs again, like wherever I may roam.
Speaker 2:You're hearing a freaking sitar and I'm going okay yeah, I think you jumped the shark guys um, but they were getting bigger and bigger, and bigger and bigger you know, and I think that's yeah, that's it. That's where I planted the flag. I'm like, no, this is not okay. You have definitely kidnapped the real Metallica and I don't know who these guys are. Um, and I was. I was really pissed off.
Speaker 1:That's totally fair. That's totally fair. But that's that's also. There's probably a lesson in here. But I think you know cause I'm. You know I'm younger than you and so by the time that I get to Metallica, you know if I'm getting it freshman year, that's 2004. So the black album has been out for like 13 years or whatever.
Speaker 1:at that point, and, and so for me, I did something very similar to what you did. I got my entry point and then I went and found everything that I could and was delighted that they had a huge back catalog for me to to go experience. But to me, I'm taking it all at face value, because it's all just there, it's all already part of the catalog. There is no. Hey, this is new. What do you guys?
Speaker 1:think it's already like established, and so I didn't take it that way. Although I was aware of the discourse, because, as I started talking to friends and people who knew more, who had been into the band longer than I had, you know, were there to tell me that the Black Album was their sellout album or you know this, that and the other. I didn't pay too much mind to that, to be honest, because I thought the songs were cool and I really liked the more experimental stuff. You mentioned the sitar and from your perspective, I see how that would be jarring. A lot of the bands that I was getting into around that time like. One of my favorite bands of all time actually, is avenge sevenfold, very influenced by metallica and pantera and everybody else.
Speaker 1:Um, but one of the things that I thought was so cool about that band when I got into them was how experimental they would be with different sounds, and so hearing that stuff is like, oh man, that's. I didn't even know what a sitar was. That's so cool to put that into a metal song or whatever you know. I mean done, done, done properly. It adds a different, a different aesthetic, a different energy, a different mystique or whatever to the song. It's like oh, this sounds like where's this going, you know? Uh, so that that's so funny, you know. But I think maybe the lesson in that is that you know that that album goes on to be their, of course, their highest selling album, which I'm sure didn't help their well, I'm assuming it's their highest selling no, I think so yeah, and which I'm sure didn't help with the sellout record.
Speaker 1:Uh, you know mentality from people, yeah, um, but clearly people really resonated with it and it's, it's's stood the test of time, but that was a big departure for them and so it makes me wonder about, you know, the uh, the willingness to take a risk and do something different, and they're a great uh example because they've taken a lot of big risk and some of them have gone on to be really great, like the black album, and some of them have been a disaster.
Speaker 2:You know Saint Anger and some of that stuff in that period of time.
Speaker 1:So it's not like it always works out Right, but you have to respect the balls to go out there and be like, yeah, you're all expecting seven to nine minute songs filled with guitar solos and all of these really unique parts strung together, uh, really fast riffs and craziness, and we're going to go out and basically do our version of kind of the opposite of that. You know it's going to be more. I don't know if people would agree with this, but I would say it's more in the ACDC mentality. You know, kind of get to the point, strong, simple riffs and, uh, well-constructed songs around guitars, bass and drums, like that's basically it. Yeah, Um, and you you do get a little, a little more than that, but it feels akin to me to something like an acdc kind of mentality, which is awesome. You know, when I think about it that way, I go oh, yeah, no, it makes total sense.
Speaker 2:You know I want to circle back because you mentioned avenge, and I don't want to take us too far off topic because I do want to get to, like the other, the other three, but in comparison to sort of what I was saying about, when you're anticipating this album as a longtime Avenged Sevenfold fan, you're coming from and again, I won't know their catalog in order, but you've had Nightmare, you've had a few of their earlier albums as well, and then you get Hail the King.
Speaker 2:And that is thing complete departure from the maniacal was, um you know, petri dish that they're known for. It's a very straightforward album, even in production very much driven by a black album aesthetic, you know a hundred percent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't even. I don't know if they would say it that plainly, but I don't think they would disagree with that.
Speaker 1:I mean, I speak as if I know them and I don't but uh, yeah, from the production and everything it it went, it did the exact same progression. Um, and you know it's. It's that record Isn't my favorite from avenged Right, but I also really enjoy it. There's some great songs on that record. Isn't my favorite from avenged Right, but I also really enjoy it. There's some great songs on that record. Yeah, yeah, yeah, um. So, yeah, I mean, it's, I yeah.
Speaker 1:Part of the lesson is, of course, be courageous, take a risk. I think the other part is that, with enough time, the tapestry of the catalog comes together and you learn to appreciate it for what it is, even if it really jars you in the moment, because those old records don't go away and, god willing, they're going to continue to make more stuff. So if this one wasn't completely it for you, then hopefully, in you know, the next couple of years you'll have something else to, you know, sink your teeth into. So, yeah, yeah, I hope all my favorite bands continue to just do what they want to do, because, yeah, I'll be damned if I know what I want, you know yeah, I think you have to keep challenging I think you do, I think all of my.
Speaker 2:I'm not here to take back, you know, anything I initially shared. I I hated the production of the album, although I go back now and I have my own issues with injustice for all, because there's literally no bass guitar in it. Yeah, um, even with the remaster, it still sounds like, yeah, I'm still missing it. Um, but that was the thing at the time. It didn't really matter. Everything's in the mid-range, if you will. So, but I hated bob rock. I don't. I hated dr feelgood from molly crew, which he produced, so I thought that was also a terrible album and also a departure from the the debauchery, even though it wasn't, it was just bombastic and too big.
Speaker 2:It just felt so big. And so I was already, you know, on a hate train for bob rock. So when I find out, oh my god, this idiot you know and produces the black album, I'm like great thanks, dude, for ruining another band. And I put all of the onus on bob rock for the departure of the band. I'm like, did he's going in there and giving these?
Speaker 2:guys drugs and making them believe that they need to have more fans than they do. I mean, I'm serious, I mean I know that's like some kind of crazy cult leader.
Speaker 1:Cult leader, yeah, you know, charles manson for the rock bands right, he's like no you must listen to me. This is what I'm gonna do.
Speaker 2:The band take this and then we're gonna bring sitar in. I promise it's gonna be badass and they're like, okay, sounds good, bob, we're doing it. But I'll go back again in my older self.
Speaker 1:But that feels kind of naive in hindsight, doesn't it totally, totally now?
Speaker 2:and yeah, yeah know, while I'll still defend and say it is not my favorite album, I have to respect the fact that they had reached a point by Injustice for All where. What else is there left to say in that world? Necessarily, we've done it. We have created the world of thrash metal and certainly brought it to a huge amount of audience, and we've done these intricate songs. So what else can we do?
Speaker 2:That's a little different, right, and I think Bob comes in at a really pivotal time to say we can beef up the sound to make it sound bigger than ever. We can approach a production of your music in a different way. That just sounds huge. Um, yeah, and let's, let's simplify the songs, get your message out in a shorter amount of time, because radio obviously would be able to play a three and a half or four minute long song as opposed to a seven and a half minute opus. So do you want to reach more fans of your music and then they go back, like you did, and discover the great, you know library material that came before it? So Bob's a genius in that way and I have to respect that. Regardless of whether I feel like the production is good or bad in hindsight, I think it's an incredibly smart move on their behalf.
Speaker 1:They gain an enormous fan base that has carried them for the next 25, 30 years um and allow them the grace to be able to make interesting different albums, take different risks uh, good or bad, but their sound certainly evolved from that moment on I would have to assume too that losing a bandmate has a big influence on figuring out what you want to do next, because I mean, I don't even I don't enjoy putting myself in that headspace, but if I was going to for a second it's like you feel pretty lost, especially with someone who is such a contributor like cliff, and this does align really well with avenged.
Speaker 1:You know, losing jimmy, you know they kind of go out, they do nightmare which jimmy had started with them. You know they had all these ideas and so that that next record after the passing for both these bands is kind of like almost a uh, take to the nth degree the thing that you've been doing to sort of like see it through and then after that picking up the pieces and going what the hell is next Like, are we really supposed to just go out and be the same band? Like how could we even do that?
Speaker 1:You know, I would assume, taking bob rock out of the equation that metallica probably was in a place of going. Something's got to give here, you know, and something's got to change in order for this to feel right again, or hopefully feel right again. Yeah, jason's already there at that point.
Speaker 2:But but again, there was often argue. I think, and again it's maybe a misquoting too, but I know Newstead had joined the band in An Injustice for All. Many of those songs, I believe, have been written with Cliff or around the time prior to his passing.
Speaker 1:And that could be, I'm not sure.
Speaker 2:Again, jason's basically coming on to do the tour with them at that point. But again they've still. The train keeps moving and, as your point, at some point they have to kind of slow down and go okay, what? Now we've given everything in the kitchen sink to sort of the thing that we've been doing. But we do have to reckon with that and decide, like, how do we go? What do we do next, and what? What's it going to be? Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're from here. Yeah, totally Um.
Speaker 2:I want to talk about.
Speaker 1:Oh, but go ahead.
Speaker 2:Sorry, yeah, what's your?
Speaker 1:idea. I was just thinking it might be interesting. We don't have to do this, but it might be fun for you and I to list in opposite orders of each other like you share your your top album from that time, okay, and then I do my least favorite, and then we work through that way, because I wonder how much they align or don't.
Speaker 2:It might turn into some arguments there which could be kind of entertaining so we're talking about those four records in particular, or are you talking about metallica?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, no, no, no, I'm thinking those bands because, you know, from from the conversation standpoint, metallica sounds like it was both of our entry point into these four bands. But then how you would end up in hindsight kind of ranking those albums, um, and I don't even exactly know what my for sure ranking would be, but I do know what all my, my thoughts were getting into each one of those bands, because some of them I got right away, like metallica, yeah, others took me a long time, um, I guess we'll get into that, uh, and then others never became a favorite for me, right?
Speaker 1:so yeah, I can share out of those four, which one's going to be your favorite? You think rust in peace without a doubt.
Speaker 2:Rust in peace. That's a masterpiece album and I I think it's hard for anyone who loves that genre to argue that I I would really challenge yeah, really challenge that it front to back. There's not a mistake there. It is thought, it's carefully thought out, I think from from dave's perspective and all the interviews I've watched from him afterwards, like the remaster or the 20th anniversary and so forth as well. He just said it's untouchable. He uses that quote it's untouchable record. But it's also even for him. He admittedly says it's a record that I don't even know if I could do it again, like I don't, and nor do I want to, but I don't know. I didn't know that I had the capacity to be able to do that. At that moment I really pushed myself in, having marty joined, the band really took and created a record that, um, it's just hard to like hearing people try and do covers of anything like tornado souls or something. Can you imagine, like you know, I mean, yeah, I don't.
Speaker 1:Good luck yeah, somehow people do it, of course, and they do, and there's great bands that have come from them, but that, again, is a staple that should not be ignored.
Speaker 2:In regards to how, in my opinion, how perfect it is top to bottom, they did not move away from their style. But again, if they're a little bit behind the curve of Metallica, where, if Metallica is seeing the vision and saying, reading the tea leaves and going, we need to change, because we've reached a pinnacle in our career, our apex, with the style of music that we have. What's next for us? That is the apex for megadeth, and then countdown to extinction becomes sort of the black album for megadeth as well, where he's like, no, we can tighten up and write melody, we can focus on melody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it doesn't have to be these, incredibly countdown's a great record too yeah, there's 50 riffs packed into a single song, and you know I mean, if you go to holy wars on recipes, just think about all the different riffs in there. A single song, and you know what I mean. If you go to holy wars on recipes, just think about all the different riffs in there. There's at least six or five or six signature riffs that are happening in that song Totally, and he goes from that to something that's very somewhat simplistic, like symphony of destruction, and that becomes sort of your inter sand man, if you will. And so, anyway, rewinding. Rest in peace. Number one for me hands down. The second choice here and third are going to be a little challenging for me, but I'll explain my thought behind it.
Speaker 1:That's. That's the tough part is the middle, yeah um, seasons in the abyss.
Speaker 2:I like slayer, but I will tell you that rain and blood and south of heaven have incredibly great songs. Rain and blood a super great thrash metal album period yeah, really great, super raw. It sounds like they're in a garage. It the production of it sounds raw and visceral. It's one of the heaviest things you hear. When you hear that, like angel of death, you're like whoa, this is even heavier than anything else I've ever heard. Tom's vocal is just like, just like someone just screaming in your face. So, yeah, that's blood curdling to me. But they found, okay, what's next for us? We've already done that. We can't really do that again.
Speaker 2:South of heaven slows down. They start finding grooves and so forth as well, and then by the time you sort of get to seasons in the abyss, they're like we're gonna take our songwriting and stuff to a little bit of a different place. And so there's heavier songs, like War Ensemble. There's slower songs on there Again, like Seasons in the Abyss is an example. Their songwriting, their lyric writing all changes, but the production quality and everything still feels very true. So at the time again when I'm hearing these albums, I'm like they aren't changing for anybody, they're just doubling down on what they do well and they know who they are. They have an identity and they're kind of sticking to it, while still evolving a little bit in their sound. Cowboys from Hell. While a phenomenal album is, of course, not my favorite record from Pantera I think, yeah, vulgar display and far beyond driven are the albums to me.
Speaker 1:It's also earlier in their career, though, so they're still coming out of this sort of these other bands.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's hard rock they. They were a hard rock band, or a hair band, if you will. Yeah, they decided they wanted to do something completely different.
Speaker 1:You hear still a lot of that, and so a hair band, if you will.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that decided they wanted to do something.
Speaker 2:Here is still a lot of that, and so in films you can still hear it like the high notes he gets on cemetery gates and sort of all these things that he's doing yeah, some of the other songs too yeah, so you're still getting these little tastes of like him, almost being like rob hallford a little bit, oh sure, you know, touching on that sort of judas priest influence that they have in there, which a lot of people don't necessarily draw into pantera, but I find and phil singing particularly on that album, it's very judas priest like to me. Yeah, um, so I think if I'm going to go in the second and third, personally I'm going to take seasons in the abyss because I do feel, front to back, that's an incredible album for Slayer, particularly for fans of Slayer, that that's also polarizing. Yeah, because you either like that band or you don't.
Speaker 2:Mostly, yeah, Because they're either they either scare the shit out of you with what they you know, their sort of imagery and who they are and what they, what they look like, you know, or what they wanted to focus on musically or um, you just go, yeah, that's, I'm way into that and I'm way into what they do.
Speaker 2:And I wouldn't say that I'm a huge fan of all of their music, but that one, particularly that moment in time in my life, I really connected with and, particularly there again, very similar to metallica, sort of. Their first three or four albums led me to that place where I'm like this is great, cowboys, boys from hell, probably third for me, just because I was blown away with the entirety of that band. They come when I hear that record, somewhat fully realized like oh, wow, yeah, I had no understanding of what they had done before, some of the other music prior to that. So when I'm introduced to that record I'm like holy crap, this is pretty heavy. Yeah, um, black album, I think I still. I still put that there, uh, in my fourth um. But I had, like I said, I listened to it again the other day, front to back.
Speaker 1:I do you only have four choices?
Speaker 2:I mean, you can put it at number five and just skip number four, if you wanted later yeah, I think um and I know on the list of it it's probably people would certainly argue um, but this is just one man's opinion of of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think. Fourth, but again with a lot of respect and understanding of why that album is what it is and and I myself told you the other day, went on the phone like I know all the lyrics to that album so clearly I've listened and studied it and tried to understand why other people still love it 20 years later, 30 years later, right, you know, when someone goes, oh my God, the Black Album is one of the best Metallica albums ever, rather than saying fuck you, moron, I'm going to go back and say okay, I'm going to listen to it again, just because maybe I'm missing something. And I often find when I do that, I find a song that I'm like, oh, that was actually a really good song, like of Wolf of man you talked about that. That's a great tune, it's a great tune, you know but that's my rank from one to four.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Huh, man, so interesting. Okay, I'm going to. I'm going to go from worst to best, okay, um, my, my last place is easy Slayer. Yeah, uh, I don't hate Slayer. In fact, I like Slayer. Slayer was the most acquired taste for me, and even now Slayer is not a band that I listen to all the time. Right, I'm not going to shut it off if it comes on, but they they never really got their claws in me like the other bands did, and I don't know exactly why that is. I always thought the, the music was cool. It's the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2:There's deep thought. The the music was cool. It's the holy spirit deep within you. That's. It's your church, it's your upbringing in church, that's it.
Speaker 1:No, it's really not because I was I was listening to plenty other uh, you know lots of other evil shit. Uh, let's call it right, um, so it wasn't that. Honestly, what I think it was is that the vocals for slayer in general are not my taste. Yeah, and it's the same problem actually that I had with megadeth early on. Megadeth was an acquired taste for me I'll get to that in a minute. But yeah, slayer, um, seasons in the bit the abyss was not a big record for me.
Speaker 1:I have a lot of respect for them being part of the big four. Yeah, just, I mean, like the hits are great, but for some reason, I just for someone who doesn't listen to lyrics as much as he should, which is definitely me it's still really important to me that the, which is definitely me. It's still really important to me that the, the, the, the timbre or the texture of the voice is still a really important factor to me as an instrument, and there are certain singers that I really gravitate toward and others that I just struggle with endlessly, and so slayer would fall into that latter category for me, where it was hard for me to get into them, because I just never jived with the vocals really. They always struck me as kind of cheesy. I'm sure that's going to piss off a lot of people me saying that, because there is an honesty to it.
Speaker 2:And, as you described, like really raw really visceral, really on purpose, not polished.
Speaker 1:You know it's meant to be what it is.
Speaker 2:It's like Lemmy for Motorhead and I respect it for that. But I think even Lemmy's a better singer.
Speaker 1:Wow, like, for sure Like. I actually like. I like Motorheads vocals.
Speaker 2:Don't ask me how it makes sense. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Don't ask me how it makes sense. I couldn't explain it, yeah, but yeah, that band comes in number four for me, okay, fair. Now the rest of them. It kind of depends on how I want to define it, because if I'm thinking of what was most impactful to me when I first got into it versus maybe how I feel about them now, I'm going to go with how I feel about them now actually. Okay, I'm going to say that I'm going to say Cowboys from hell comes next. And third, yeah, okay, which is hard, hard for me because honestly it's a toss up in the the two and two and three spots, I would say yeah, I would say cowboys from hell, which hurts me because, unlike Slayer, I really really love that record.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:And that band.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I agree with you that their best work came later, but man Domination is might be my all time favorite Pantera song and has been since I first heard it. Primal Concrete.
Speaker 2:Sledgeudge certainly up there and to me in my top five as well. That's such a great and there's so many other really cool songs on there.
Speaker 1:Oh, totally, totally. I remember, uh. For anyone who hasn't seen it, go on youtube right now and find it, but there is a video of you would probably know what the concert was more than me, uh, but I think it's like it's around the time that record would have come out. So it's like 91, maybe 92, uh and the uh, and they ended up in moscow, uh, so they did that huge show in russia. I think metallica was there too and probably some other bands. There was like a million people. I don't think that's an exaggeration. I think they actually had a million people at that show. Yeah, and Pantera comes out and just starts ripping domination Dude. Even thinking about it right now, it gives me chills, like it is one of the coolest things ever.
Speaker 1:I'm like how could you not love this band? I mean dime's out there and everybody just losing their mind on stage, windmilling their hair and yeah, and ripping it, and everyone in the the crowd is also losing their mind you got people it looks like a country going to war.
Speaker 1:Basically, yes, but it's pantera, yeah, and uh, yeah, and, as people say, uh, that lives in my head, rent free, uh, and comes up on a regular basis when I think about, just like some of the coolest things I've ever seen. I wish I could have been in there in person, but, uh, getting to go back and watch that video, that is like one of the coolest things ever. Um, so, yeah, I think cowboys from hell ranks up there. I, I got into them also in high school, uh, and I got into them all out of order, which is why it's hard for me to even pick, because it's still during that same time frame where, like, I don't just have the the records on hand, right, I'm not listening to them in the right track order. I'm listening to different songs from different albums. They're all just mixed together.
Speaker 1:It's like one big pantera soup, basically, yes, and so yeah, and maybe that's why it's hard for me to rank it at number three, because I want to rank it higher. But I know, based on the, the songs on that actual record, yeah, that's probably where it belongs. But that guitar playing and phil's vocals like that's a band I got right away from the vocals. Um, even even with some of his stuff that, as you described it, kind of, uh, halford-esque, yeah, um, there he. No one else sounds like him.
Speaker 1:No, not, not, really not really you know other people can do that kind of thing, yeah, um, but he is one of a kind, yeah, and there's just something about his delivery that is incredible and in prepping for this, this podcast, I was listening to that record again with the lyrics up and just thinking about how it. It didn't occur to me as much until recently. How unique the because he writes good lyrics anyway but how uniquely his delivery ends up layering those lyrics on top of the riffs that are happening, and it's a little more nuanced than I would have given it credit for, just from memory, yeah, but he has to be given a lot of credit for making it all work because, you know, he takes those really great tunes and then puts this really kind of savage, savage type vocal on top of it with these lyrics that are clearly coming from an important place for him. You know, unlike bands of, let's say, maybe a little bit before that era, let's say, like you know, 80s for sure, so much metal is written from.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking like, for some reason, dio is coming to mind, but you know you have this kind of like cinematic or the dungeon wizard, yeah, and you know the uh, the uh the magic throughout the lands and all
Speaker 1:this kind of thing, right, yeah, uh, which is cool. There's a place for that, I'm not. I'm not talking shit on that, yeah, but it came from this very almost, um, fantasy world influence in metal that existed, and all the bands we're talking about today don't fit into that, but you can tell that especially at least I feel like I can tell that Phil's lyrics come from a very real place, cause even like, contrasted with Metallica and we'll use the black album because that's what we're talking about All those songs are kind of themed around. They don't feel very personal. They're well written and they're about specific things, like they're focused. You understand what the songs are about? Yeah, but there's still a little more. Understand what the songs are about? Yeah, but there's still a little more. They don't necessarily feel like james is revealing anything about himself necessarily on that record. Um, it's more like speaking out to other people as opposed to speaking about himself, and I know that not all of Cowboys from hell is like some. Uh.
Speaker 2:I don't know like introspective diary. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it feels, it feels diary right.
Speaker 1:But, it felt like they were coming from a place that had a lot more genuine anger behind it and a lot more fresh emotion, um, in regards to what he's talking about, and so I connected with that a lot. I would put in my second place the black album. I think it belongs there in a lot of places in my head. It belongs there because of the influence that it's had on me. I've listened to that one way more than I've listened to any of the others it's had on me. Um, I've listened to that one way more than I've listened to any of the others. It's not even close.
Speaker 1:I've always loved the production of that album. To me that is a masterclass on how you take a standard sort of I say standard right, but like, uh, how you take a, a radio type rock song and make it sound as heavy as possible. I love the drum sound on that album and I know those kinds of things have been, have been used too much now and I think that's why most people are critical of it is because I think it was so influential in the culture that and people may or may not notice this, but my take is it was so influential in the culture that it ended up seeping into pretty much everybody's production style. Everyone's trying to replicate those kinds of things and I think that's what takes away from it. It's not that it's not great.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people just got tired of that kind of thing because it was so big. You know it's like almost any band. You know you'll love a band when they're coming out. And then if the song gets too much radio play, then all of a sudden it's natural, if you were early on, to be like maybe this wasn't as good as I thought it was, or I'm just tired of it. Um, it's too much of a good thing. I think the black album suffers from that. Uh, I think it suffers from too much of a good thing. Yeah, um, which is not their fault, um but I think the way that it's produced, the, the focus of the songs.
Speaker 1:Even though I prefer early Metallica and, as I said, um, ride the lightning is my favorite record and then master, so clearly, I love the more progressive Metallica, I love um, I love the more garage sound. Uh, I, in my mind, in my heart, when I hear Metallica that is how I perceive them is as if it was on ride the lightning. Um, but still it's. It's a phenomenal album and and uh has stuck with me for a long time, so it's got to be up there. Yeah, and then that leaves the.
Speaker 1:What would have been a huge surprise for me, even probably a few years ago, but megadeth is the sleeper that ends up in in first place. On this one, I would not have said that not not too long ago. I remember in high school getting into metallica, of course, being the entry point and then. So anyone who knows anything is immediately saying oh well, if you like metallica, then you must love megadeth, or I guess it was a little more polarized than that in high school. There were some people who who would be like oh okay, well then, what do you think of megadeth? If you're a metallica fan.
Speaker 1:Are you someone who hates? Megadeth you like?
Speaker 2:like you got to choose a side kind of yeah it was very much like that for me yeah, yeah, yeah, pick your team. We're gonna meet you after school in the parking lot, like uh, choose wisely I think I was also created a lot by dave's feelings about early on being kicked out of the band. I'm sure you know, I'm sure he's like no, we're coming with the vengeance.
Speaker 1:So perhaps he helped to kind of fuel some of that that was yeah, I mean, the way that I have always understood it from him is that was conscious, like he was trying to basically like it's like a bad breakup. Like you know, I'll show them I'm gonna get 10 times hotter and I'm gonna get fit I'm gonna you know, I'm gonna find someone better looking to make them, you know whatever right whatever it is yeah yeah, and probably why there were so many guitar players that he hired through that band.
Speaker 1:Right, it's like I gotta have the hottest hot shit on this on this album. So I can respect that. But I remember hearing Megadeth early and thinking, oh man, I really wish I liked this more. I was like this is I was so confused by it for some reason, cause I'm like I feel like I'm supposed to like this but for some reason I can't get into it. And it was Dave singing. Dave was an acquired taste for me and I remember people saying like how much they loved it. I'm like I must just be missing something. Like what, how am I not getting this? Like he's not good, right, like are y'all just pretending, like you like the other stuff so much that it outweighs the fact that he's not very good at singing? Yeah, and I'm very happy to eat my words at this point, cause that was was, that was the limitations of my taste at that point. You know people still address it though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I just do, they do.
Speaker 2:I think I said I, I feel like I just sent a meme that I found the other day. It's like a picture of, like, uh, arnold schwarzenegger in his ripped biggest right, I think, or some type of sure. It might have might not been him, but it certainly looked like him, yeah, where he's just it's shredded right and it says it's got Megadeth at the top, this like Megadeth, and it says there's split screen. So one is Arnold, just ripped like pumping iron kind of thing, and at the bottom of it says music, and then on the opposite side it's a picture of Beavis and it says focus. So, um, yeah, and it's kind of. But that addresses exactly the acquired taste and I agree with you like. But I absolutely love, I love his style of singing. Now it's it's totally grown on me in a great way it took me until what was that album?
Speaker 1:so the thing that I I've noticed that I do this with bands anytime there's a band that I've been told by people that I trust that you should check this out, and let's say that I have and it didn't click for me.
Speaker 1:Anytime I see a band like that come out with a new album, I always try to check it out, because what I've noticed about me is that a lot of times if I can get something when it's new and everyone's getting into it and it can help me unlock the band, then I can go back with a new appreciation. But I struggle sometimes to jump in in the middle of the catalog or going back to the very beginning, I don't know why. So that happened for me, like whatever the first album that they had Chris Broderick on. I wish I could end game, or that sounds wrong. It would have been around like 2007, 2008.
Speaker 1:I remember they came out with with a record that I got into and I was like, oh, I'm kind of getting it now and then being able to go back, and it was like, oh, I'm kind of getting it now and then being able to go back, and it was like a switch flipped in my brain where, all of a sudden, dave's voice was not annoying to me. It wasn't weird, it was exactly what that band needed. It was so perfect. And I thought, man, how did I feel that way for so long? Uh, and I felt that way about other bands too.
Speaker 1:Tom Petty is a good example of like maybe my favorite, probably my favorite songwriter of all time and one of my favorite bands the heartbreakers and and his solo stuff too, which basically is just the heartbreakers, yep, um, but that was a band that I'm like. I'm so glad I didn't give up on that and that I eventually found it, because what a loss in my life if I never find Tom Petty, and and certainly a loss of my life if I don't get into to Megadeth. Um, because there's so much great music in their catalog. And so if I have to look at at this list from a creativity and delivering on expectations and like, uh, I mean, all these records stand the test of time. But that's where now, at this point in my life I give the edge to to rust, um, because uh, it's hard to to go back and listen to it and not just be blown away even still. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It, it, just I don't't. I also have to think about and we've talked often about this too like it's such an onslaught of riffage that and I I say this all the time like like how do you even keep up? Yeah, how does that?
Speaker 1:man not just sound like a sloppy mess, live like how can four or five people lock in for two and a half hours and just rip that shit that tight? I mean I've seen him do it. I've seen him do it in person many times it's unbelievable, yeah absolutely unbelievable.
Speaker 2:It's a machine and watching dave being able to. It shouldn't be possible that I think what people and I don't know, maybe not maybe all that people really do. I think I, reading some of the reddit threads and stuff when I was going back to this record as well, like there's a lot of people that are just like, if anyone has any negative thing to say about dave, watch them play live and watch them do any of those songs from that record yeah, and they're like it's the case is closed.
Speaker 2:Like to be able to still play all of those things like what was the one? Oh, tornado of souls. Like hearing that and then hearing him play that lick while singing a pretty complex type of verse, and still being able to keep that riff going and not get off the rails with it is that's not and not that it should be a factor in the ranking or whatever, and it's all subjective.
Speaker 1:yeah, but that's not even to take into account that over the years, like dave's arm basically didn't work didn't work like he's had right, he's had to from an injury like I think he had a bowling injury, of all things that basically completely ruined his, his hand, so he had to relearn from scratch how to play guitar. Yeah, so it's not like he just spent all those, all those years getting up to that point Then he was able to like, maintain, no, and it hasn't even been once. He's had multiple injuries that have set him back and force him to relearn things. I can't even wrap my head around that. Yeah, so he's playing it and singing it, he's doing it perfectly and he's had to start from scratch several times to keep it going. I mean, if that's not inspiring as all hell, like I don't know what is, yeah, to just to be able to just say I will not be defeated, I don't care. Like that's what I mean.
Speaker 2:the sheer, yeah, drive and tenacity for him to continue to keep pushing himself and again, throughout their career, even post rust and peace yes, they have definitely dabbled in. Let's try to focus on a more commercial record or simplified song structure that focuses more on melody and things like that. Like you hear that throughout, you gotta mix it up. What I'd like to kind of come back to, particularly now and I say not to leave slayer or pantera out of that, but I think it's more because these two bands are still actively going um, yeah, a few lineup changes here and there, but they're still actively going. But what's been interesting about it is a bit of a, dare I say, a return to form. So they've almost kind of come full circle.
Speaker 2:If you think about metallica's last two albums, the 72 seasons, and then going back to hardwired, even like dystopia and the sort of the last album I can't think of the name of it right now for megadeth, it has been a bit of a return back to their really heavy sort of thrash influence, yeah, roots, where you're not finding a ton of balladry or slower songs perhaps.
Speaker 2:Why do you think that is? Why do you think right? Because they again, at that moment when we talked about. They made their statement. They feel like at that moment in time, they've said all they can say at that particular frame. They decide to change, they do something completely more different for them, for sure, but definitely more accessible, if you will and then, over the course of probably the next 20 years or so, they decided you know what I kind of I don't know if it's a nostalgia or if it's just like I sort of miss being able to write very hard to play intricate songs they seem to have returned to some of that, if you will, yeah yeah, I think I would agree with that.
Speaker 1:I'm glad that they have especially metallica. Megadeth has never lost me in the way that metallica has through their career. Yeah, I would agree, there are some metallica records I just don't listen to. Yeah, I wouldn't put any megadeth records in that list of like. I just skip it every time. Um, I don't know. Maybe it's probably partially like old becomes new again. Maybe but. I also think that. Well, and you think about the, so I mean what the first metallica record comes out in, like 83 or something yeah, probably I'm gonna be off on that day, but probably somewhere around there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so what? Yeah, we're like 40 years or whatever you know, from the first one, um, but I would also think that that style never leaves you as an artist, necessarily, you know, and for a band like metallica, there ended up being other detours that they chose to want to take, but I don't know that they ever set out within themselves to say we're never coming back to this right, like we're leaving it all behind, you know. So I think some of it is just as a fan being patient and waiting to hear what, what the band has for you and when they're ready to come back, because if you're going to do something, it's got to feel authentic to you. If you feel tired of it, or you're because like anything I mean an art can certainly be this way if something gets too repetitive, like you could keep making it, but you're into you're making things that are like one degree different or one shade on the pantone scale different, and so you're like is it different? Yeah, I mean technically in a laboratory, you know it's different, right, but does it really feel different? Yeah, and so if you're not feeling inspired or you feel like maybe you are at risk of just kind of rewriting the same thing over and over again.
Speaker 1:I can understand why, why bands need to take a break and why you can't necessarily put a timer on how long it's going to take for you to feel refreshed, to go back. Yeah, or for some bands it never happens. Um, but hardwired was a great record. Oh my god, that one was awesome. As a fan, it felt so nice to be able to hear a modern production of Metallica with a lot of the same excitement that you would get from listening to older Metallica.
Speaker 1:Yeah, some of those songs are so good.
Speaker 2:I loved hearing James cause they did that whole sort of video behind the scenes of them putting it together and talking about like hold up, hold up. I got to get back into chugga chugga, chugga, shape, you know, behind the scenes of them putting it together and talking about like, hold up, hold up.
Speaker 2:I gotta get back into chugga chugga, chugga, shape, you know like uh, yeah, with his left with his left hand or whatever, or right hand, right hand, right hand yeah, uh, just being able to get some of the the aggressiveness back. And in playing in that way, because you, if you don't do it a lot, or you've changed sort of your way of going to more simplistic or more focused riffs, you decide like, okay, now I'm going to go back to playing something that's, you know, like something super fast and crazy. Yeah, you're like, oh crap, I need to get my hand back in shape. I'm not ready for this right now. I want to do this, but my hand's not ready yet. I'm not ready for this right now. I want to do this, but my hand's not ready yet. So I got to get back into, into physical shape to be able to produce something that I really hear in my head. Yeah, I want to go back to doing some of that stuff.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, and I would assume his comment on that probably was more about just getting in shape for the tour. Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry Because it's not like they've stopped playing any of that old catalog stuff you know, on tour.
Speaker 1:Right. But yeah, I mean fair point is is it takes a different mentality. It takes one. Some of that can be part of it too. Right, it's like who you are at. I mean, how old is James at in those early records? I mean I'm sure he's in his twenties, yeah, I gotta be early. The person that you are then, versus the person he is now. It might feel disingenuous at times to try to write like you would have written when you were basically still a kid. Um, it's hard to say.
Speaker 2:I'm sure there's a lot of factors in there, but that's an interesting question, yeah my other one I was thinking about just now is like when you have bands I think about because obviously they continue to listen to new bands, to new, the evolution of bands that fall within their genre, people that have come up and being influenced by them, yeah, taking years, taking their own path, like if you're like lamb of god, their own path, like if you're like lamb of god, or avenged or mastodon.
Speaker 2:You know, these are bands that certainly have come up, probably listening to some of all of these bands that we've talked about, but have taken their own journey and their own style, their own production, their own things. Um, you know, I wonder if, if any of them probably look at this I don't know if I would or not, I can't say because I've obviously not been to that point. Neither of us have been to the point of epic success and huge fandom yeah, and then realizing like, oh, do people want us to do that thing? Because they're all getting turned on by the. You know, again, lamb of god, that's a great example, they're superbly great musicians. Um, you know, heavy, heavy, heavy.
Speaker 2:So, or if you're mega death, are you looking at that and going, okay, I'm gonna go on a tour with these guys. I gotta bring it. Of course they know that they can. Of course they're going to bring it and people are certainly there to see them. But you also also hear them. You're sitting on side stage hearing them every night and going, oh, okay, this is a good challenge. It's good Healthy challenge, good healthy competition for me to go back and go.
Speaker 2:Okay, I want to continue to keep writing stuff that still pushes me, this still me, you know, because you have these other bands that that have come up, that are younger, that love you, that love your work, but they're also doing something that's visceral and and intricate and difficult to play. Um, so I don't know. I don't know if you ever get influenced by those kind of things. If it get, if it's too much like headiness, you get into your head and go, man, I don't know if we can do a record like Macedon, you know, yeah, do you know what I mean? We still have to do our own thing, but it's like you know what I mean. Yeah, do those things kind of weigh heavy in you when you're going into the studio writing your next record? Do you think about that kind of stuff or you just go fuck it. We're just going to do us and do the best we can.
Speaker 1:I'm sure a lot of that comes down to personality. Some people struggle with those kinds of things more than others. Something tells me Dave has probably never given a shit about that, and I could be totally wrong, but he seems like someone who has always been very confident in what he wants to bring to the table, his vision, and realizing that all those other things that may appear as a challenge now were spawned from his own brainchild. Right Like, if Megadeth doesn't exist, does Lamb of God exist? Even like maybe?
Speaker 2:you know, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I mean I'm just talking shit, but yeah, um, but I don't know. I mean I'm just talking shit, but yeah, um, but I don't know. I'm sure it's different for everybody. You wouldn't be human if you didn't feel some weight of expectations and so that could even be against yourself. Right, like you go out, you have a massive success. Then you go oh, I mean, that huge song that everyone expects that to be our thing now was maybe just one aspect of what I wanted to do.
Speaker 1:But now maybe I feel like, okay, well, if I'm going on tour or hearing what other people are doing in the genre has got to inspire you on some level. It's got to give you some ideas of. You know, we might not be able to do that the way that they do, but that does make me think that some of that, the ethos behind what they're doing, might really fit in well with the project that we're doing. I mean, that's how we work. Yeah, you know we get inspired by artists that we love, and then we try to figure out okay, how could we? You know we're we're not ever going to sound like those bands, right, but how can we incorporate a little bit of the uh, the drama of ghosts or you know, the heaviness of Metallica or the um.
Speaker 1:I don't know like we can name off a million influences across a million million genres, but just trying to challenge yourself based on things that really connect with you, um, and trying to incorporate that in um, that's always been a part of how I've made stuff. I don't know if that's how those guys work or not. You know, they may have come from an era where they're just totally trusting their own gut all the time, yeah, but I don't think that's true either, because I mean, you can see how many covers that Metallica does and how many bands that they really, really, really love, that they talk about all the time, and that either came before them or who were maybe, you know, coming up around the same time. They were coming up, yeah, and so I would assume that, like you know, misfits still exist as an influence for Metallica or whatever Right Motorhead kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, motorhead, all of those bands, I think, and I think they you know you got lulu, yeah, but I do agree, like, I think, a lot of those bands that they, even the bands that they bring on tour with them, now I think they have a genuine mutual love of one another. You know, yeah, they go, I love your music, I love what you do. It's so incredible to see you continue to do this. And for the other artists they're like thank you so much. You know this is what a great opportunity to be able to to, you know, play alongside you, really reach out to your fan base.
Speaker 2:You know, we believe that they would love our music just as much, or maybe that turns them on to something new. So I think there's caught, there's smart choices that are being made now, um, when people go out on tour, especially those bands megadeth, um, pantera of slayer, of slayer retired, but um, you know, I know that they're picking bands that to me, would further the genre. That helps to continue to create new audiences and new appreciation. Some people come for those opening bands and stay around to listen, maybe because they have a good understanding of of metallic orica or Megadeth or Pantera or Slayer or whomever, and they end up loving and falling in love with those bands in a similar way that we did Right.
Speaker 1:So yeah, a hundred percent and they're mutually beneficial, right? Because I'm thinking about last time I saw Megadeth was metal tour of the year. So you've got Megadeth, and then the supporting acts were trivium, lamb of god, and I'm on a marth, I think and so you've got bands who span several decades apart from each other. So you know, the old metal heads are coming in to see megadeth and then they're going to see these newer bands and maybe find something they love, and those newer bands are going to bring in younger fans who are going to go. Oh my god, I had no idea.
Speaker 1:Megadeth was the goat or whatever right, um, so I would assume those things really benefit each other. You know, they give each other a stage or a light to to be shown under. Yeah, it's damn, that was a great concert too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you kind of re-up like Holy moly, right, you're just getting pummeled for five hours for just incredible proficiency.
Speaker 2:Getting your ass beat, yeah, musically, musically speaking, just getting whooped, yeah, you know, but what a great, what a great thing to be able to do that. I don't know, to kind of put a bow tie on all of it. These are four, four artists that we, you know, have had some impact to us, different at different points in time, for albums. I think that really speak to to many fans of these bands or of the genres that they represent, as sort of apex moments, um, yeah, in their career, and it really does, to show love and appreciation to, to what they do, regardless of whether in the moment hearing them, you have, I have or you may have an opposing reaction to what I feel now or what we may feel now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, it's undeniable that they're the levity that they bring with that. You know, all of those records at some point have vastly influenced a whole new legion of metal fans and people that are still probably in their garage, like you and I, figuring out what their next thing's going to be. But having those posters and those figuring out what their next thing's going to be, but having those posters and those tours that they've seen as sort of a way to kind of create their own path forward. So I think hats off to all of them. We obviously have a lot of respect and adoration for these bands and certainly appreciate those contributions.
Speaker 1:You know yeah, maybe next we continue through the 90s and we uh, we grab some of the grunge bands or something, because there are so many different, so many different ones that we could do across so many genres. Um, yeah, it's kind of it's fun to reflect on these things and just think about what they've they've meant to you and and then how your perspective has changed. I think that is one of the more unique things.
Speaker 2:It's like um, it's a really good thing that tastes can evolve and that you don't stay the same person forever, you know it's like somebody asking you oh, go ahead, go ahead, sorry.
Speaker 1:I was going to say, yeah, there, there's those people who find their music in high school and then that's all it ever is, that's all that ever exists in their world, you know, for the rest of their lives.
Speaker 1:Uh, I'm grateful to not be one of those people I still love the music that I found in high school, as everyone does. That's important, important stuff for your life yeah, you know you'll always keep that but also to be able to allow your, your taste, to change, to grow, to evolve, to find new things. I used to be a hater about anything that wasn't in a box of what I thought I liked, and then eventually you start realizing that the only person who loses with that mentality is you, because you end up missing out on so many great things that you wouldn't have found otherwise if you weren't willing to be kind of humble and maybe give it a second shot or second try, um, to venture into something that normally wouldn't be your thing.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But no risk, no reward, right? If you're not willing to stop spinning you know the Black Album to go listen to something else, then you're never going to find anything else yeah.
Speaker 2:I think for both of us. It would be funny, you know, if anybody out there listening to our podcast would be curious about what our randomized music selection would be based on our tastes. Oh geez, it would be no surprise to get a trivium or lamb of god followed by dualipa. You know like yeah, yeah you know, I mean absolutely. That's exactly right, it would absolutely happen and yeah, um, that would be okay, you know, um so yeah, I love doing. I'm not afraid.
Speaker 1:Nope, I'm not ashamed.
Speaker 2:Nope, Not at all. We're going to end a metal conversation with Dua Lipa. I think that's fantastic. What a great place to say why not? Why not, you know? Yeah, but that just goes to show like we end up just as musicians and lovers of music. We have a wide palette and I think you're right.
Speaker 1:If it's good, it's good. Yeah, if it's good, it's good. That's all that needs to matter. It doesn't need to matter what other people think about it. It doesn't matter how popular a band is or how, maybe on paper they look like opposites. If it's good, it's good. We all win if it's good. So we just need more people to make more good shit and everything's peachy.
Speaker 2:I love it. I love it, yeah, awesome.
Speaker 1:Take us home. Are we wrapping up here then?
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's do it Cool.
Speaker 1:All right. So if you made it this far, thank you. We appreciate you listening.
Speaker 1:Yes, If you want to hear more from us, you want to get in contact with us, um, learn more about the show, anything like that. Of course, uh, all of our episodes are posted, but you can find us at the sonic alchemycom, so that's our website. Uh, you can also find us on. So far, we're only on YouTube and Twitter. Um, just to keep things simple, uh, if you're hearing this, in the future maybe we've expanded, but the same same tagline and the sonic alchemy you'll find us there. Um and uh, I guess it's not Twitter Twitter anymore, it's X, but if you find us on there, that's a really great way to ask questions.
Speaker 1:If you have something that you want us to put on the show, uh, or, you know, you want to give us feedback or just stay connected to to the stuff that we're doing, uh, lots, lots more coming, oh, yeah, some really big change coming in our lives, some new projects coming out, uh, all kinds of stuff. So it's not slowing down from here. There will only be more, and we look forward to taking you on journey with us. So, uh, yeah, stay tuned and we'll have our next episode out shortly. Anything I missed.
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Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks everybody. Stay tuned for the next one Peace and love, absolutely Later, later.