The Sonic Alchemy
Welcome to Sonic Alchemy, the ultimate podcast for creatives looking to elevate their craft and gain insider insights into the world of artistry. Hosted by Justin Webster and Kevin Crouch of the band The Silver Echo, this engaging show provides a dynamic platform to showcase artists and delve into the myriad skills and layers that contribute to a successful creative career.
Each episode of Sonic Alchemy offers a blend of captivating interviews and insightful discussions. Our interviews feature a diverse array of artists who share their unique journeys, techniques, and sources of inspiration. These conversations provide listeners with a rare glimpse into the personal and professional experiences that shape creative success.
In addition to interviews, Justin and Kevin host thought-provoking discussions on various topics relevant to creatives. These episodes explore everything from honing specific skills and overcoming creative blocks to navigating the business side of art and staying inspired in a rapidly changing world.
Discover how successful artists overcome challenges and find their voice.
Gain practical advice on developing skills, managing a creative career, and staying motivated.
Connect with a community of passionate creatives who are dedicated to their craft.
Sonic Alchemy is more than a podcast; it's a journey into the heart of creativity. Join Justin and Kevin as they uncover the alchemical process that turns passion into artistry and artistry into success. Whether you're an aspiring artist or an established creator, Sonic Alchemy offers the insights and inspiration you need to thrive.
Tune in and transform your creative potential into gold with Sonic Alchemy!
The Sonic Alchemy
Forming Sonic Alchemy: A Musical Journey of Collaboration and Creativity
Ever wondered how two musicians from different backgrounds could come together to form a powerful creative partnership? In our debut episode of the Sonic Alchemy podcast, we promise to take you on a journey through our eclectic tastes in band merch, our shared love for metal and rock legends like Slayer, Foo Fighters, and Pantera, and the serendipitous meeting that sparked our decade-long collaboration. As hosts Justin and Kevin from The Silver Echo, we introduce you to the heart and soul of our podcast: exploring the intricate creative processes behind making music, and the challenges faced by independent artists, from the first note to self-promotion.
Our conversation moves through the evolution of our musical journey, starting from the humble beginnings of covering Ellie Goulding’s "Lights" to pooling our gear for a makeshift basement studio that eventually produced an EP. We reflect on our diverse backgrounds in electronic music and synthesizers, and how these influences blend to shape our unique sound. You'll hear about the formation of our band, meeting like-minded musicians, and the pivotal collaborations that have defined our path. We share anecdotes from our time converting a garage into a studio and the crucial role of our drummer Michael Cheatham and multi-instrumentalist Joe in shaping our musical endeavors.
To wrap things up, we dive into the nitty-gritty of musical collaboration, the importance of trust and honest feedback, and overcoming the hurdles of songwriting. Discover how we transformed the song "Say Something" from an acoustic piece into an electronic masterpiece and the lessons learned from such creative endeavors. With a promise of exciting future topics and guest appearances, we invite you to connect with us through Sonic Alchemy and our social media channels. We're thrilled to embark on this journey with you.
Learn more about The Silver Echo at thesilverecho.com
oh, hells, bells, here we go. All right, gotta get comfy. Oh yeah, yeah, we're settling in for the long haul oh, what is the shirt you're wearing today?
Speaker 2:let's see what. What?
Speaker 1:it's uh from. Yeah, see you in hell yeah the uh satanic cat with the fire coming out the eyes oh, I see that, I see us. Oh yes, black craft is the uh. Our parents are proud of us. Oh yeah, yeah, 100 worshiping the dark. Oh yeah, you should see. The other one that I got says uh hail, satan, drink blood and it's a vampire, nice on the front.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I showed you the uh, that's a work slayer, one that uh back during the oh it was. Uh, what did they call? It's like south of South of Christmas, or yeah, yeah, I'm like I have to order that Christmas sweater.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of good Slayer.
Speaker 2:That one was really choice. And I saw a guy come into work with that and I was like, oh my goodness, that that made my holiday. Yeah, it was pretty cool yeah.
Speaker 1:Someone had to do it yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm doing, uh, I'm sporting old school first. Queen queens yeah, yeah, yes, one of our uh, one of our favorites, for sure. Uh, I think they're uh supposed to be having a new record coming out this year too, which will be fantastic. They're definitely doing the festival thing, so, yeah, I'm pretty excited about that, I mean their last album was like five years ago or something it sounds like he went through a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2:Josh ame, yeah, so I'm eager to hear what that's going to be and if that translates. It's like the food fighters like losing taylor, right. Whatever this next record is going to be, it's you got to imagine that some of that stuff's going to come into that.
Speaker 1:Kind of feels like there's a lot of that right now too. You got Pantera. It's long since removed from the disasters that have hit that band, but seeing them go out back out on the road and uh, also saw today they're going to be doing a tour with Lamb of God, I guess when they wrap up the talent, yeah.
Speaker 2:Phil sounds good from all the live stuff that I've gotten to see. Just in listening to people recording off their camera and hearing him, I think that south america tour, whatever he was doing, uh with them yeah, they all sound great. Yeah, yeah, I mean, and they certainly uh picked two great people to fill in big shoes, so I'm very excited to see that show.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's gonna be really cool.
Speaker 2:Anyway, enough about all that. Why are we here?
Speaker 1:Justin Tell us yeah, so this is our first episode of the Sonic Alchemy podcast, so congratulations.
Speaker 2:We made it. We made it to show number one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my name is Justin, this is Kevin, kevin Crouch. Um, we are, uh, in a band called the silver echo and, uh, I play guitar and sing in that band, kev is on keys and, um, as you'll learn about us over time, you know this isn't meant to be a podcast about our band, Um, but just a little bit of context there. We, we wear a lot of hats, as I'm sure most people do who are in this world of independent music or you know probably any artistic field. You know, these days most people are working on their own or, you know, with a handful of people, but not necessarily major label releases and marketing and PR firms, and you know all this other stuff. There are a lot of things, if you're going to be successful, that you have to do in this world that fall outside of playing your instrument, and so, you know, we kind of divvy up a lot of those duties.
Speaker 2:It's both a blessing and a curse. I think you know some days it feels like a blessing. Some days it feels like, oh God, I got to go tweet something or post something. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But yeah, yeah, I'm sure that is a relatable feeling for a lot of people. Oh, yeah, but yeah. So this podcast is meant for a handful of things, but really it's just a place for artists I would say specifically musicians, but I imagine a lot of the topics we'll be covering will reach beyond just those of you who play an instrument. But it's to create a place where we can talk to other artists and learn about different processes for creativity, um, different styles of writing, different approaches, different places people are coming from and why they're creating their art. Um, the way that I see it and I could be wrong, and I would love for people to point me in the direction of, uh, uh, great content like this but, um, whether it's a podcast or you know, YouTube that sort of thing, lots of amazing channels. You've got Rick Beato breaking down production and music theory, um, you know amongst other people.
Speaker 1:Justin Hawkins you know giving his sort of uh, uh, current events takes um, which is great, um, and then you've got pedal demos and gear demos and you've got production, how to, and you've got lessons. There are lots of places to go to get great information about, you know, facility on your instrument or what's happening out in the world of music. Um, what we want to do is really focus on how the art gets made. You know, not necessarily the technical facility of performing the song, but how does that song come to exist in the first place? And everyone seems to do it differently. But we'll cover a lot of other topics as well.
Speaker 1:We won't be able to resist offering our two cents on music, current events, and you know we'll get into other things as well, hopefully talking to uh guests who can help us, and you as the listener.
Speaker 1:Uh, you know level up in areas that you might not be as passionate about as Kevin was alluding to a minute ago.
Speaker 1:You know you might have to be the social media manager on top of the keyboard player, or the graphic designer or video editor, or, uh, you know you might have to be the social media manager on top of the keyboard player, or the graphic designer or video editor, or, uh, you know, the list goes on and on and on of of potential responsibilities. So, uh, yeah, we'll be covering topics like that, talking to other artists, uh, sharing our experiences and, uh, hopefully, uh, that inspires you or gives you something new to try. You know, we want to be in close contact with our listeners as well, so if you have ideas for the show topics you want us to cover, want to add your two cents, we'd love to hear from you, and we are launching the sonic alchemycom where you'll be able to get in touch with us and or, or you know, know, you want to be a guest? You know someone who would be a great guest, those sorts of things.
Speaker 2:I love that too, because, you know we don't get to um like we said. We're not, we don't want to self-serving for our band. Of course we're going to talk about things that we did, because you know we're 10 years deep in this right now and you know we still don't know what the hell we're doing most days. But we've been fortunate enough to kind of figure things out or learn as we go and develop as we go both our songwriting skill as well as our ability to sort of navigate the things that are required, I think, these days to really be able to self-promote, market yourself, get yourself out there and try and get heard. And by no means are we uh uh, a hugely successful band, um, at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's our disclaimer here. Right, we're we're exploring these topics and ideas, but in no way suggesting that we know what we're talking about, because, you know, we are not uh authorities in this space. Um, but hopefully, as we get going, um, and we have some uh, actually some really cool uh interview guests lined up already but, uh, that will continue to grow uh, as we as we move on with this thing. But, you know, hopefully we'll get to talk to people who are an authority, right, and, um, we get a chance to learn right along with our audience. So, all of that said, um, I think our topic today is collaboration.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, and how, how important it is, if you are fortunate enough to have a person that you can work with, bounce ideas off of um, yell and scream at to to uh, to get your idea across, or to to um, make whatever art, it is better, right, I think, um, and I don't think of you as a collaborator anymore. I think I think of you as a friend now and a. I think I think of you as a friend now and a brother more than anything. But I think initially we'll go back and kind of talk about how we sort of met and give a little bit of context to this as well. But, as I said earlier, I mean, we're 10 plus years deep into our working through music and the you know the offshoots of those things like video, like, uh, social media, like all the things that you know. But initially it started just with us, um, maybe trying to say, oh, wow, you love music, do I?
Speaker 1:yeah, um, so maybe give a little uh, give a little history, yeah, well, it makes me think that both you and I have had considerable amounts of time where we've worked on projects just by ourselves, yes, and a lot of time now, uh, of working together.
Speaker 1:Um, and I, I think a lot of times now of working together, and I think a lot of times there are two different kinds of people those who are just a mastermind and they have a vision for everything and they need to execute that vision.
Speaker 1:At times, I feel like that guy enjoy my ideas, but I enjoy my ideas so much more when they get mixed into and through the filters of other people. At one point or another, you're going to be forced to collaborate with someone, whether that be on album, artwork, whether that be on you know, if you, if you go to a studio to record your amazing vision, you're going to be collaborating with the engineer, unless you're going to do all that too, um. So I think this topic, regardless of what kind of person you are, hopefully there'll be something to to be taken away from this, um, but to to, I guess, follow up on your point um, you and I met just over 10 years ago now and, um, our working together was sort of coincidence, I guess, like we work at the same place and and uh, at that time you were running a side business doing, um, you know, video work yeah, um, yeah, still.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my side hustle in addition to doing and teaching others how to use products and so forth, but yeah, side hustle on video. And I met you and yeah, you were. You were doing a cover of an Ellie Goulding song.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Um yeah, which is unfortunately still on YouTube somewhere Uh don't, don't beat yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll beat myself up about the video which I think was Justin porn.
Speaker 1:It's a whole lot of Justin set of the backdrop of the Bay area, um, yeah, beautiful San Francisco backgrounds, um, but well, that gets to show how our, our collaboration has really grown, you know, and where our ideas have turned to since. But yeah, I had, uh, I remember I was working on a cover of that song, uh, lights by Ellie Golding and it's kind of like a down-tempo, loungy, acoustic sort of thing, and I don't even know why I showed it to you or how that came about. But, um, I remember you thinking like or saying to me hey, this is pretty cool, like why don't we work together? I can do a video and I had seen some of your work, you know, just observing it while you would edit, you know, breaks or whatever.
Speaker 1:Um, so I saw you on your, your computer doing that stuff. So I figured, hey, like I never intended for this to be anything, now maybe it can be something. So we worked on that and then that transitioned into, uh, you, me and our friend, greg, uh, who's out in vegas now. Um, you know, we were all doing our own thing musically and, uh, I had been working on a, an ep that came out in 2013 or 14, something like that, I don't remember now, yeah, time eludes this I want to say 2015, but I don't remember.
Speaker 1:I think it's, yeah, it's a little I don't know dude, yeah, but I don't know from the writing to release yeah many years.
Speaker 2:It's hard to know when something came out. I don't remember yesterday.
Speaker 1:Yeah, six years ago, yeah but the point being, you know, I was working on a project that was just music that I was writing for, basically to satisfy my need to write um, and the other guys were as well, and we all had bits and pieces of gear. But we figured, hey, you know, if we pull our shit together, we basically have a full studio. So you graciously agreed to let us use your basement at that time.
Speaker 2:Oh yes, we had a dungeon basement that I was dropping the hip-hop out of. Yeah, I had a friend of a collaborator that was, um, he was an aspiring mc trying to kind of get him get his name out in the bay area for like hip hop and stuff like that. And I I've always loved electronic music and producing that kind of thing and, um, I'm sure there'll be many, many of these podcasts where you'll get to hear my absolute love and adoration for all things Trent Reznor, but, um, I'd always done that kind of thing like creating uh electronic beats, loops, beats, loops, uh phrases or whatever you want to talk?
Speaker 2:about sampling that kind of thing. I'd always been into that for many, many years and I was a synth kid I was fortunate enough to, even when I was growing up like getting introduced to synthesizers and I think a casio cz1, I think, was what it was for the very first synth I ever owned. So I was always into that kind of thing and fast forward to, yeah, coming over to my uh, subterranean basement area. Uh, I had, I think, a midi controller. You said a drum machine. I think I had a drum machine there, yeah, um, a monitor and a cube and a computer and you had a guitar and an amp well, it was so funny because we really all just came in and built our own station with our own computer yeah, our own gear whatever
Speaker 1:like, yeah, here me cost the suit closet, but fast forward. You know I'm wrapping up, uh, that ep and I don't play piano. Well, I play. I play a little bit. I played more than than I do now, for sure, uh, but I had done some keyboard work for the EP and there was a song that I really wanted organ on and that getting realistic organ vibe, uh, for me that's not my territory. So I knew Kev played. You know we had worked together a little bit here and there, just in that same space, sharing ideas and whatever, and uh, so I sent you the track and, um, you worked on it.
Speaker 2:You said I was like well, it's been a long time since I got to actually work on a song. Yeah, so much of it like, again, I was in the same way, you were working on things on my own. So it was like, oh, this person actually wants me to record a piece of actual music uh, yeah, not that I don't consider loose and samples and all that.
Speaker 2:But it's like, okay, I had only written and seen like 16 bars of something for so long that I was like, oh wow, that's a whole song, it's like a whole three or four minutes like damn, I'm fatigued, you know it's got multiple parts like going back to the gym like, oh, I gotta write a verse and a chorus, yeah, okay, but it, uh, it was.
Speaker 2:It proved to be a really great challenge and, um, something I was very excited and honored to get to do and I was like, wow, this, it was really fun, it was a spark for me to to get to do that.
Speaker 1:Well, and it was a test for me, one to see like can you pull it off? Because I was hoping you could. I guess I did, you did you did. You passed the test. Yeah, but you know I I think even at that point I was really searching for other people that I can make music with, and before I started working with you, which is in 2012, I'm living in a small town in Central California, not a lot of people to work with. There Was fortunate to meet our current drummer in our band, michael Cheatham, who will absolutely be on this podcast as well. The wild man, the wild man Are all drummers wild? It's gonna come off topic.
Speaker 2:But yeah, out of the three of us, I feel like maybe he is the wild man. Oh, absolutely right, yeah, so I don't know if that's building in. The cliche about drummers is being the crazy.
Speaker 1:I think you need a lot of energy. You gotta have a lot of energy, a good drummer. So, yeah, lot of energy to be a good drummer. So you know that energy is going to come out somewhere.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you're not on a kit, yeah, but, uh, amazing guy. But that said, you know I wasn't in a position where I had a lot of people to choose from. You know there were. There were some good musicians in my town for sure, sure, but you know, everyone has their own taste, their own varying level of interest in different projects.
Speaker 1:So, finding someone that, uh, I saw eye to eye with, who wanted to, you know was in a place in their life where they could work on some things, you know it was a small pool and uh, so then, moving back to the Bay and meeting you, you know, in a much bigger area, I'm hoping that I can find some other people, cause in my goal was I'm going to keep doing this. Um, I want to write songs, I want to make original stuff, and uh, so it was really cool to get to do that first song with you. And then we did a show, we, we put a show together to promote the EP coming out, and Michael is a part of that. Our friend Greg was part of that as well. Our buddy Joe, who is absolutely a future guest for another episode. He is a phenomenal musician and makes some really, really cool shit, so I was texting him the other night and he agreed to come on.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank goodness, yeah, big shout out to Prog Dog and to Joe for sure. Oh, thank goodness, yeah, big shout out to Prague dog and to Joe for sure. Like that guy, yeah, he smokes all of us. He's a real when I say real musician, yeah, yeah, he's incredible, yeah.
Speaker 1:He's phenomenal. He makes me want to quit guitar. Yeah, there's a lot of people who can make me feel that way though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um so yes, to have him though.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, our circle. I think Absolutely, yeah. Um, so we put that show together and it felt really great to have all of us playing live together, cause I think that's another test. So I go back after that and go okay, well, maybe I need to write more songs. So I start working on more stuff and, um, at this point, uh, you had moved. We switched uh into basically changing a garage into a studio instead of a basement. We got a little more space and we started thinking, okay, maybe this makes sense to pull our stuff together. Um, you know, it's a it's a bit of band marriage of uh, what's mine is yours and what's yours is mine. In fact, if we go through the that garage, it's hard to even know who bought what, although it's probably you. Uh, you definitely invest a lot in uh, in cool shit, a friend of mine told me once that it was.
Speaker 2:it's called gas gear acquisition syndrome. Oh yeah, and apparently I have a lot of gas.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're a very gassy person. I'm very gassy, a hundred percent For sure. So you know I'm I'm working on more songs. And then you and I were collaborating a lot more at that point. Instead of me showing up going, all right, here's a song, can you put a part on this? It was hey, here's something I'm working on. What do you think about this? And then having your, your two cents, really influenced where we were going to go, and uh, then it started to feel really, uh, disingenuous.
Speaker 2:For me to release it under my name because it really felt like we were a band. You know, yeah, we kind of accidentally fell into that place. Yeah, because it was a lot of uh, if I'm remembering a lot correctly, it became sort of like friday night lights is what I like to call. It was like fridays tend to be the day that both of us were off of our work, at our day job, or could get together and and um, we had a studio kind of we were making the studio, we would acquire gear here and there when I could afford to get something or you could afford to get something, and we would add to.
Speaker 2:And I remember putting, I think, the, the MIDI drum kit was a big step for us and getting that in the studio. And then I've always aspired to want to play drums and but Michael, living a little long distance, a little bit away from us there, we couldn't always get Michael up to play all the time. Well, don't forget, your dumb ass tries to put a real kit. Living a little long distance, a little bit away from us there, we couldn't always get michael up to play all the time.
Speaker 1:Well, don't forget, your dumb ass tries to put a real kit in the studio. So there again. It's a big dream.
Speaker 2:We don't know what the fuck we're doing, but we love doing it. So, yeah, I'm like yeah, I have an acoustic kit so let's just put that in there. That won't work, so you can't, can't you just Mike that, and they're like no dude.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, also not at 11 o'clock at night.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, we can't really do that Um, and we're going to. We will certainly talk about all those learns and uh, isolation cabinets and all this stuff that we had to figure out so that we get kicked out of the house that I was living or living in now for annoying our neighbors, but a MIDI kit to learn how to try and get by on playing some drums here and there, so that we could actually jam as a guitarist and a drummer and put some ideas together. Sometimes I'd play bass here and there, I play keys on something whatever. So there was a lot more of um, kind of switching up, a little bit um, just to kind of try things out and see what would come, and of those ideas we started realizing, oh wow, this is starting to feel a lot like a good partnership between you and I.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it started to feel very natural very quickly and then. So Michael at that point wasn't looking for a band to play in, he was doing his own thing. He was with another band at that time doing a lot of shows in Vegas and he was keeping the road hot, uh, between California and Vegas and all that Uh and so so we kind of kept fishing for him for a while of saying, uh, you know check out this check out this idea far and above the or, far and away, I suppose the the best drummer that I've ever had the pleasure of working with in real life, yeah.
Speaker 2:Same.
Speaker 1:And uh. So it was kind of a dream of like all right, how do we convince him? We need to write a song cool enough that he'll want to do it. And he had already agreed to play for us to do a recording. You know, he's always down to help, but he wasn't exactly in a place where that was something he wanted to pursue. Yeah, and luckily we we shifted his sentiment. I don't know which song did it now looking back, but I can't remember.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cause we sent a lot to him a lot of ideas, lots of demos. Yeah, I think we were both like, and he's also. I'm thinking we'll get him on to talk about this. But he's like who's a? Is this dumbass drummer playing on?
Speaker 1:this you've come a long way. Yeah, you've come a long way come a long way.
Speaker 2:I get his seal of approval here and there. Yeah, hey, I still try. I'm like is this good, is this a good part? Yeah, uh, no, I kid. But uh, validate me, yeah, validate, I need validation, evaluation, uh, please. But yeah, the point of that, I think, yeah, somehow, we, we somehow kept kept after him and said, look, we we're.
Speaker 2:By this point we had gotten several good song ideas or what we felt to be really good bones to a lot of good songs, and we had sent it to him and said come on, and I think something I don't remember which one or what convinced him. But he's like, oh, yeah, I'm starting to feel this now. And maybe the shift with him from doing covers and playing he wanted to get back to maybe doing more original stuff. We'll, we'll ask him and see. But I think there was, um, he started feeling like, okay, I want to, I want to get back involved. There's a history there too, and I think you'd be remiss of not talking a little bit about that. But well, yeah, I mean, he and I have been in bands since we were in high school.
Speaker 1:I mean, I met Michael when I was 15. We went to high school together and we played together in church. We, we were in a metal band that we had formed in high school with another good friend of ours, tyler. We were in a metal band that we had formed in high school, uh, with another good friend of ours, tyler, uh, and so that was another trio. I'm starting to starting to pick up a theme maybe. Um, but you know, we had, uh, really just kind of went for it in high school and all the eggs in that basket.
Speaker 2:Dude, yeah, oh man.
Speaker 1:That was the most excited I'd ever been about music. That was so much fun and so glad that I had that experience. And uh, then after high school, you know, we did a touch of college. I didn't even make it a quarter before I dropped out. That was not for me, man, I'm not built for for school at all. Um, and then we ended up, uh, forming another band and we, uh, we toured with that band for a few years, um, you know, started locally and then we, we did the whole thing where we, uh, we booked ourselves and self-funded and, um, really just everyone in that band committed to, you know, let's, let's, go see if we can make this thing happen. Yeah, and we made it really far. We did a lot of really cool stuff, played hundreds of shows all across the country, eating lots of Slim Jims and showering in YMCA bathrooms, and you know all the the cliche tropes of doing that thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, in a van or a little, uh, some type of cargo vehicle, I'm assuming.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, we were basically in the breaking bad. Uh, rv, it's it, it's almost exactly the that is amazing. Almost exactly that is amazing. Yeah, it was a 89, jamboree for jamboree. Wow so all the gear and everything in there uh, no, the gear was ours. Um, we had, uh, picked that up from you know different. I mean, was it packed in the rv with, yeah, everything? So we had a trailer. Okay, so you did, there's an rv and a trailer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, dude, that's fancy. Yeah, that's kind of fancy for, I would imagine, for a lot of people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's pretty amazing some bands do it just in a van. Yeah, everything together. So, yeah, it was luxurious by some standards, yeah. However, I think most people would avoid that situation of uh, they could yeah, four grown men, you know, sharing beds and, uh, smelling up an rv across thousands of miles and you find yourself someplace in, like midland, texas, going. What am I doing? Why did I do this? What was?
Speaker 2:the reason for this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I thought this was a good idea, yeah I love music but this is a different, there's a whole different animal.
Speaker 1:Like I'm really far from home. Yeah, uh, yeah, yeah, but yeah, we had all those kind of experiences together. So michael and I, by this point, were, uh, no strangers to working together and, um, both had had every intention of collaborating forever in one way or another. Yeah, but you know, at this stage I wasn't going to ask him to leave a good thing that he had going on and and um, but you know, it all worked out, which is cool, and so then that turns into to Michael sort of joining, I wouldn't exactly say the 11th hour, but but pretty near. You know, we had written all the songs already. Um, there was a couple that he had more writing influence on, but mostly he came in and took a look at the demo and figured out okay, how do I fit into this and you know what can I bring to the table. So he put drums on everything and then we put that album out. When the hell did that one come out?
Speaker 2:That was 2019. Yeah, it feels again longer because I think april 2019 if I go back and look at some of our archives of those songs I mean we were 2016, 2017 from some of them we were working on, so it was a while before we actually, you know got it out there. If you, will like put it on a streaming service and all that, which is a whole other topic too, but yeah, um yeah, it was 2019, early I think yeah.
Speaker 1:so I guess, by most standards, 2019 is when the band became a band. That was our first release. We played, uh, our first shows just after that. Um, yeah, so, so that's some of the backstory, but I think I think the topic begs a lot of questions. Um, and and maybe just some reflections is, like you know, we sort of got lucky and found a kinship and, um, a lot of overlapping, shared taste and loves of certain bands and certain artists singers, guitar players, whatever Um, and that fit really naturally.
Speaker 1:Um, I think for me, like, what I get the most out of having someone to work with is it's so hard to know when your idea is any different than any other idea that you have.
Speaker 1:You know, sometimes you get excited by something that you're writing, but sometimes the things that you're not excited about really excite other people. Um, sometimes you, you think something's great and it's really not. So, having someone to have some some outside perspective to let you know whether you're wasting your time pursuing something or not. You know, I could sit down in an afternoon and come up with, you know, 10, 15, 20, however many you want of different potential song ideas or or parts that might be something like how do you know which one's any good? And you need someone that you can trust, and so trust is like the number one word that I think of, and I imagine you know if. If you're trying to find other people to work with, the number one thing that you need to have in them is trust, and I don't just mean trust that they're not going to like steal your shit.
Speaker 2:That's like no, I don't like that idea. But can I take it home and work on it and then you, six months later, you see it out there?
Speaker 1:in the world.
Speaker 2:You see it on reverbcom Wait a minute, you son of a bitch yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was my guitar. Or the idea manifesting into something else Like wait a second yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's kind of a given, but. But what I think more of it is is like uh, I understand where you're coming from musically and the types of things that you like enough that when you share your thoughts on something, I know I can agree with it, because there's always going to be people out there that you just sort of fundamentally disagree about what kinds of things are cool, and no one's right or wrong, it's just, you know, someone else might be into bands that just don't do it for me, right, and so if they give me their two cents about whether they think an idea is cool or not, I don't know whether I can trust that, because what I care more than anything is that it's it's cool to me and that I'm trying to make music that I want to hear.
Speaker 2:Right, that's really what I'm trying to do, like, I want to write the kinds of songs that I want to be excited to listen to, you know we talk about having a good collaborator and I think you and I've been very fortunate, as you know, we're we're now very good friends and all of that too. But when I think of having a good collaborator, I do think of it like a relationship.
Speaker 2:Like it's like a, the dating and the whole thing. Like you know, um, I know I'm, you know, when we first started talking at work and you'd show me the song and I told you yeah, you sound. You know, it sounds like uh, it's a little bit like Chris Cornell, you know. Uh, I'm volleying one out there, I'm like you know and and not that I didn't believe in it, but it's like, okay, let's see if this guy even knows who the hell I'm talking about. Right, and when you?
Speaker 1:when you're like, come on, dude, I like when I lit up like a Christmas tree.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when your whole face turns red and you're like, you think I sound like Chris Cornell. I'm like oh, this dude, okay cool.
Speaker 1:So he likes some sound. This guy's dumb enough to think that I'm like yes.
Speaker 2:I'm here, let's roll, let's get to it. Yeah, so I'm definitely getting the second date here. But, yeah, as you keep going, you know, and we talked about being in the studio and all those kind of things, but there were places, there were times, even in the studio, where it was just a music listening and we would share, yeah, like, oh, have you heard this song? Or what do you think about this thing. As we were thinking of ideas, thinking of things like oh, this reminds me of this, and I think I kind of gotten you plugged into tom petty, we were both kind of getting into ryan adams a little bit, yeah, and we had started to talk a lot about, like, what kind of record do you want to make? What kind of thing is this turning into? And it felt like a like a rock and roll record. Yeah, yeah, something back like we talked about a little bit like the 70s and 80s era, uh, production of like rock albums that we kind of enjoy back then.
Speaker 1:And yeah, it was well. I don't think our band exists without Tom Petty no, absolutely not, probably at all.
Speaker 2:And the heartbreakers Um yeah, I mean we go as far as to call a song heartbreaker.
Speaker 1:On our album we're pretty shameless about some of those things, I don't think we try to hide our influences um, or at least we don't do it very well.
Speaker 2:It is a Foo Fighters song that I absolutely love. There's a whole backstory for that, but that became our album name. There's a lot of those things in there Easter eggs, if you will.
Speaker 1:But sometimes that can be the hardest thing you know is just figuring out what you're going to do. Um, we've tried lots of different things and we'll continue to do so, cause, I mean, that's part of the fun is of being an independent music artist is that there's no rules, so you can do whatever you want Do you get nervous, like I got nervous, like I would want to introduce an idea of an artist, or like hey, maybe have you heard foreigner or whatever.
Speaker 2:Right, and we're like so, but we, it was always kind of that thing and it's like, like I said, the only only reference point I have is thinking about dating, like if you're going out or you want to go see a movie, for example, and you don't know, like oh, is this person gonna like a horror film?
Speaker 1:or is this person?
Speaker 2:gonna like sushi or what and as you start to get closer and closer and build your sort of friendship or foundation of something you start to learn like okay, you do like this or Pearl Jam. No, you don't. For whatever reason, you don't like Pearl Jam.
Speaker 1:Well, like, if I come to the table with a, you know, gary Clark Jr style sort of dirty blues riff and you go. It might be cool to put phil collins in the middle of this, yeah am I gonna? Tell you to fuck off. Yeah, yeah. What am I gonna entertain that talking about?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah but that was things like as you're building the soup of, or the chili, or whatever you want to call're building the soup of, or the chili, or whatever you want to call it, of the, the band, or these demos, or whatever right we would bring different kind of things to the table like, hey, what about if I do this?
Speaker 2:and you know, like we just said, you know we have no shame about our references and our points of reference because we love artists. So if we borrow or if we think of something that influences that, that's that thing, we bring it. And a lot of times you're like, yeah, I did not think that Phil Collins in the air tonight would pair well with the Gary Clark jr Dirty blues riff, but you know what it does, yeah, and that becomes the identity of what the silver echo turns into.
Speaker 1:I think that's a good word for it. That is a big part of what we do. It's not like we set out to write songs that sound like bands necessarily.
Speaker 2:I don't think anybody really. Well, maybe, but I don't think so.
Speaker 1:I don't think of that, but I do think in a weird way, we're always trying to go okay, if this feels like it could belong to a certain artist that I love, then what's a peanut butter and jelly pairing, or you know two things that maybe don't seem like they even make sense on the surface and put them together into something new, or at least hopefully that's new or feels kind of fresh, because you're getting vibes that you wouldn't expect together that might work that's the orgasmic part and you get to make that sweet love of the music and you put your two ideas together, sure, and you go yeah, oh my god, that felt good for you and felt good for me.
Speaker 2:So it still goes back to that thing, like, yeah, it's, it is like a relationship. I go I tell you this too because, um, and I think it's important for people like there's an intimacy in, in working together and that trust that you keep talking about, you know revealing you when the first time you go and say I'm going to show you lyrics to this song, like it's very close to you and you know opening up for that kind of thing, or like, hey, do you like this idea that I'm bringing to the table? Yeah, you're still in a place of operating because you've only had yourself, you're in a silo for a long time. So when you're finally out there and you're in the dating world, I guess, of collaboration, yeah, and you share ideas with somebody, there's still a bit of self-consciousness, or oh, it's super hard.
Speaker 1:It still is it still is.
Speaker 1:Because there's a difference between having a finished product that you spent as much time as you needed working on, and then, once it's a song, it's just kind of a song, whether it's good or bad, it's just a song.
Speaker 1:Ideas feel so much more, I don't know like sensitive to me.
Speaker 1:Because you're still in the process, because you know I've heard John Mayer talk about this and I completely agree that every time I sit down to write a new song, there's that fear in the back of your head that you already wrote your, your last one, cause, like I don't know where they come from.
Speaker 1:You know it's right, like I, I'm fortunate that when I sit down to work on something I'm able to to write, but I don't know how many of these I have. Or you know, like if one day the universe is just going to shut off the tap, like you know, and so you have that that fear each time, or that that voice in the back of your head that, yeah, cause I didn't know what I was doing last time and I got lucky and got one finished, but this, whatever I bring to this one could be terrible. And so you're in the middle of it and you're going to bounce something that is not fully fleshed out, where really what you're asking for is trust, like hey, here's kind of where I'm headed with this. I think it could be cool. I don't know exactly how it's gonna work, so just don't shut me down too quick as I try to figure it out, you know, or?
Speaker 2:I'm stuck, yeah, and can you hitch up to this and pull me out of the mud here for a second? Or maybe you come up with an idea that that actually can take it further, because you're like man, I think this is really good, but I don't know where else to go with it, and that this is so important, I think, for the listeners or people that are they're checking this out, like what we're really talking about is you know when you, when you're, if, if you find that person, you find a person that you can trust. You find the collaborator. You've shared musical, uh, similarities and tastes and you know what, uh, what the other person likes, or you've introduced them to different things, and you start to get this relationship built, being able to be confident, I think, to say, yeah, this isn't one. Or maybe we need to put this on back burner for a minute and let's focus on something else.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like those are really challenging and tough conversations and you know, for the sake of self edit, we we blew through a lot of some of those things in this conversation. But there's pieces of that where you know we would go in to work on a vocal, we would go in to work on a thing, yeah, and it was a shit day. It was the truth. I mean, we would come out of there and go fuck this. This was not what either one of us hoped to get to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I know that was especially tough for you. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It was especially tough for you because we were also we're also learning and figuring this out. We were our own producer. So, while you do get the pleasure of having a collaborator and a person to work with, when you're writing, now it's a matter of, like, you want to make this for something. You want to really fully birth this song and make something that's really cool and what we both believe would be really cool. So the the stakes are high and you coming in and and doing a vocal and I know those. There were some painful sessions where I'm like I don't think. I don't think it's there yet.
Speaker 2:I think the notes are there yeah but the conviction's not, and hearing that that's where I'm saying like it can sting your soul, or if you go. No, I kind of like what you're playing, but there's probably something better there If you could just do it different and better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean it's okay, but I think there's something else and I can't I guarantee you any musician or anybody out there, any artist that hears that and knows exactly what we're talking about. You just cringed a little hair just stood up on the back of your neck and you're like, oh God, you know you want to puke, yeah, but it's, it's a necessary part, right? Feedback being open and comfortable to share that kind of feedback with one another. That's why that's how you grow, and if you don't do that, what's the point of having a collaborator?
Speaker 1:well, there's a couple pieces to that, I think, and one is not letting your, your pride be a factor, because as long as you know the other person isn't just being vindictive or you know being, I don't know anything other than honest with just being vindictive or you know being, I don't know anything other than honest with you when they say I think you can do better, at the end of the day, that's a compliment. You can do better is is a vote of confidence and saying whether this idea is good, pretty good, man, terrible. Uh, I know that you, I know that you have more to offer and I just think you're still finding it. Um, that is only going to push you in a positive direction. Um, so I think being able to hear those words, as well as being able to say those words to someone else, is really key. Um, so you know, I know not everyone is in as fortunate of a position to have someone that they work with so easily, but whether it is a strife filled relationship or not, I think that's kind of non-negotiable, as you need to at least be able to tell each other yeah, that wasn't it, for whatever reason, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And, uh, you know, being willing to try different things that get you out of your comfort zone, cause most of what those early sessions were for me, vocally, I think they're a great example of what we're talking about. You know, the way that, uh, I came up with in music was only as a guitar player, and singing was not something that I started to try to do until like toward the end of high school, and even with that was, which sounds young and I suppose it. I suppose it is. But you know, my um, my sister, um, my sister Lindsay, you know she just sort of like came out the womb with great pipes. You know, she, she's one of those people with the gift. All of my sisters are incredibly talented and they can all sing. But, uh, that was just Lindsay's thing and everyone really praised that in her, and so naturally, the fit was just okay. Well, I'll.
Speaker 2:I will get. I need to figure out something to do. Yeah, I got to figure out something to do, to, to, to be seen in a way. Yeah, participate Like.
Speaker 1:I love music, um and uh. So then, you know, toward the end of high school, she and I were playing in church and you know she started pushing me to say like hey, why don't you sing harmony, or back me up a little bit? And uh, so I got by with some of that for a little while, but and then, in all the bands I was in, I was also just a guitar player. I did a little bit of backing vocals, and but it was something in my heart that I wanted to be good at, but I man, it just did not really come naturally to me and I was really timid about it. So when it comes time for us to do this band, the ideas that both of us are having for how the vocals should come across are not what my voice was really wanting to do naturally, yeah. Wanting to do naturally, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so I would find myself either in one of two places defaulting to a safe place that wasn't really what I wanted but was what I felt I could do or banging my head against a wall, trying to figure out how do I make my voice sound the way I want it to sound. And so going through all those sessions, I think really was just the learning curve mostly, of being vulnerable enough to go okay. Okay, if you think I can get there and you're willing to be patient enough for me to just practice and figure this out and be really shitty until I'm not, then maybe this can work. You know and I don't think, without having that space with someone else, that I would have figured those things out I don't think there's another way to do it. I think you have to just kind of lay yourself bare and go okay. Yeah, this is probably going to be really bad, but let's try again. Take 340, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was, um, I can't imagine. All I can know is that, uh, like I was a, I think each and every time we get a chance to even from this today or whatever project we get to work on together I have I look at it as a gift and go. The gods have bestowed upon us this amazing gift to be able to get to work together, so we can't squander any of it, Right? And this is also where that thing about ego and making sure that that there's a good balance of that, because you do need some ego and swagger if it's serving a song and serving the character of a song. Sometimes you have to have that, yeah, and this is something that you should believe in your ideas, absolutely.
Speaker 1:The ones that you feel conviction about. You should defend. Yeah, and I will do that, even when I'm standing alone sometimes, and sometimes I have to back down, and other times it helps the others come around to say, okay, well, what am I not seeing until it clicks, you know those that.
Speaker 2:I think that's the thing, because you know if you, if what we're talking about in this whole podcast is finding a collaborator, finding the person you can trust, building good rapport, being comfortable to give honest and truthful constructive feedback to the other person for the sake of the thing that you're making together. Yeah then yeah, but there's some times where you have to go no, damn it, that was the take, that was it. Yeah, I felt it it's the right one. Yeah, let's keep going and being honest about that and go no, I don't have anything else. Like I remember joking with you, like when we would do demos and I would have the keyboard and I would have worked out this part, whatever I felt like I was like, yeah, this is the one. Yeah, and I did it. And they're like great, that's good. And now now we have that and so think about what else you know you're gonna do and how you're gonna change that for when we do it for all time. And I'm like what do you mean for all time? I just did it for all time. That was it. That's the part. Sucker into whatever thing you're gonna do. You did record it right. Yeah, I hope you did, because that was the one. You're like no, that's for the demo. Yeah, but we got this whole. You know, we got to do the song for real.
Speaker 2:And that was my own ignorance about thinking about that. I'm like, oh, so there's a, there's a demo phase and then there's maybe something where I may want to try different instruments and all that kind of stuff. But I didn didn't know that. So I'm just like no, I just gave you my 110%. Yeah, you know, or flip the side of that. And I'm sitting there at the desk and you're behind me and you're singing and I'm not looking in your face when I'm telling you like, and you go, how did that sound? And you go, yeah, maybe do another one, yeah, we.
Speaker 2:Alan, you go. Yeah, maybe do another one. Yeah, we're gonna need at least one more, can we do?
Speaker 2:another one, either I screwed up and didn't record it and didn't want to tell you uh or uh, or there was maybe, maybe. I felt like there was something else that would, that was trying to get there. So those are tough days, no doubt. But what happens from those? Like anything, I think, if you know, some days you go to the gym and you kick the gym's ass, and other days you go to the gym and the gym beat your ass. But when you go home and the gym beat your ass, you better believe you're going to go back.
Speaker 2:If you've got it in you and you really are committed to doing this thing, you're going to go back the next day or the day after that, once you've healed and gotten stronger. You're going to go back and you're going to kick its ass for sure. In every single one of those tough sessions. I do remember coming back to it the next time we met with fresh ears and a fresh perspective and you've thought about it or I've thought about it, and you come back and you're like, oh, perspective, and you've thought about it, or I've thought about it, and you come back and you're like, oh, I'm on it now I have something to prove, and I'm going to knock this out of the park.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you have to sort of face down that insecurity about whatever you're doing so that you can really believe in it and just get it done. But I think an example that we have to talk about is say something from our album, because I think the other thing I guess this is really already what we're talking about I can't remember the writer who said it, but you know you have to kill your darlings. Um, yeah, I should know who said that. But we think about that a lot and it's hard when you really get too close to something you know I had written.
Speaker 1:Say something, um, as a certain kind of song. I had it in my head, uh, which is the most abstract thing to try to explain to people. But a lot of times when I'm writing a song, once I get an idea, I start to hear the rest of it in my head, and I don't mean that I'm like audibly hearing it, but in the same way that you can, like you know, sing a pitch in your head or whatever, I start to hear the elements, like what kinds of things are in it, what kind of parts?
Speaker 2:how it's going to make me feel when it is right.
Speaker 1:It like triggers a feeling in my body that I'm then chasing, and I suppose it's a lot like sculpting. It's like, okay, well, I have the material now and I know that the this sculpture is inside this block. I just got to find it one little piece at a time, that's. That's basically the game that I'm playing, but so I had that. So usually that's a good sign. And you know, I hear it as more of this sort of acoustic based thing and we write the whole song and we've been just fighting with it, for lack of better words, just wrestling with it, trying to understand why is it not working? It should be working. Everything that's in here is pretty good, like, why is the sum of the parts not connecting? And, uh, this is one of the bigger times that I had to just trust your instincts, because everything in me wanted to fight back or fight me one or the other yeah, maybe both yeah, uh but we're, we're sitting there listening, trying to trying to solve this problem and uh, kev tells me hey, why don't you?
Speaker 1:um, it doesn't even matter what it was, it all got muted eventually. But it was like hey, why don't you mute the? Uh, the keyboards? I'm going okay, he wants to hear without his parts. Maybe he's got an idea and we're listening through. He goes okay, good, good, um, mute the uh, mute the guitar like okay, now you're up in my territory.
Speaker 2:What are you talking about? What are you doing on my side of the tracks asshole yeah, and I'm like, okay, I play it back.
Speaker 1:I'm like muting is not deleting. Yeah, it's okay, still there, I haven't removed it. Yeah, why don't you pull out the bass? Pull out the. It was basically everything. Yeah, and he goes, okay, and I'm waiting for him to say something profound and he goes yeah, we need to get this whole song and I'm going and replace it with what? Dude like I, what are you even talking about the whole song's here? There's just something that's out of balance and it's like I, I'm not, it just isn't working. You know bottom line, you know you can rationalize it how you want. So we did, we gutted it, we took part of the song out and then we ended up coming up with the arrangement it has now, which is way more uh electronic and uh open and you know, as electric guitar, and it has all of these really cool sort of keyboard layers and it wasn't that feeling at all, the thumpy bass, um.
Speaker 2:So it was kind of like doing a cover of our own song, absolutely yeah, you know, yeah, we went full property brothers on that bitch and took it down to nothing, like there was maybe some concrete and some. The key stayed the same. The chord progressions were there because the bone I think that was the thing that both of us knew the bones of the song and what we had worked on together were there, but it just wasn't there. It wasn't at the place where I think either one of us yeah, and that's tougher for you, because you had you had really wrote all of that. So I'm just coming in as a person that's kind of like okay, I'm gonna put my parts into this song and we'll make it a thing, and yeah, it's easy to say something isn't working, but it's way harder to come up with the solution.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know? Yes, which is where I'm like. Well, if you're going to tell me my shit stinks, yeah.
Speaker 2:So at least have a better idea. What do you have? Yeah, and that one, honestly, I think this is a very defining point for us in that, because you have those magic moments, like I talked about, where there's lightning in a bottle and we found a cool idea, like heartbreaker, and it clicked and like, oh yeah, okay, this feels great. And then there are places that kick your teeth in, like say something, but what came from that is like I give you some parts for a song and you go, oh, now, this is this is interesting, this is this is interesting. This is actually really cool.
Speaker 2:And they were like, okay, now try your vocal on top of this whole different, like a completely different song we took. Even Michael's drums were not working, like the whole place that we were trying to go just was not serving. What the song could be yeah, every part of it, yeah. And so we literally took it back to just okay, well, we know what the song could be, yeah and uh, every part of it, yeah. And so we literally took it back to just okay, well, we know what the chord progression is, let's try that. And you had great lyrics and the bones of the song were there. But, um, we just had to trust and believe in each other and go, but also kind of fight through it and like if we wipe the slate clean, then what?
Speaker 1:because everything that you do builds like. Everything that you do next builds on what came before it right, and so if you're building on top of a certain idea or concept of what it's supposed to be, you're already skewing it away from what, what else it could be. Yeah, I liken it now when we find ourselves in positions like this. But even remembering this song is like if, uh, if you let someone dress you who doesn't know you at all and they put you in some wacky shit that they think looks great, but you feel so uncomfortable in it that there's no way that, even if it does look good objectively, you're not going to pull it off because you feel so out of your element. You're like I don't belong in this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know yeah, it doesn't feel like you, yeah, at all, and so I think that song was a good example of. You know it was wearing the wrong clothes, you know, like the chord progression and the, the lyrics and the basic melody was there, but how that got interpreted on recording and as a band it needed a different set of clothes to to be what it was supposed to be. You know, and now it's one of the you know it's probably one of the top three songs that we've written.
Speaker 2:I don't know, know, I mean it's it's, it's up there and subjective, of course, but yeah, like I'm proud as hell of that song now, yeah, and I think that you know, if you're out there and you're, you're hearing some of this and you're going, oh my God, I went through that with you know my buddy in the band or my primary songwriter and all that, you know exactly what we're talking about. It's like sometimes you just get to a point with with that, with the song, where you go, yeah, f it, let's just start over and, um, take what's there and see if we can reshape this into something else. And so the idea of covering our own song, uh, is how that?
Speaker 1:song came to be. But the alternative is being a dictator about your ideas, right. And I suppose there are people out there who can get away with that, because maybe their idea really is better. Yeah, but if you're in a situation where you're trying to work together on something you know, I usually could have said hey, it's my song, I wrote it.
Speaker 1:If you want to hear it different, write a different song, you know, and stuck, stuck to my guns and odds are that song probably wouldn't have even made it on the record as it stood. Yeah, but by saying, okay, well, we can always go back, you know, if we can't come up with something better. You know, I'm happy to admit now that I'm so glad that I didn't do that Right, you know, because it would have been a completely different song. Yeah, it's like.
Speaker 2:At least see it through, at least at least try the idea, you know if they think about that now and I know you and I both have listened to rick rubin stuff a lot, but that is a very rick rubin-esque type thing it's like, yeah, okay, that's a good idea, let's try that with a whole. You had a thing. Oh yeah, bring that, let's hear what that thing is in this idea.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's not say it's good or bad before we actually hear it yeah, so let's hear everybody's idea on the table and let's see what, what this song could be from everyone's perspective. Yeah, and then, once we do that, then we can all kind of vote and decide on yeah, that that's the one, or maybe it's a combo of either, or I've always found that fascinating and we've we've definitely gotten better about the self-edit, if you will, that way where now we can go and go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that ain't working cut you know, yeah, until it's in its final form, everything's variable, everything is able to be taken out or added to or whatever. Because I mean, what should matter the most to everyone making the art is that the art is as good as it can possibly be.
Speaker 2:So if ego is getting in the way of that, or, uh, you know, just uh, even just laziness sometimes, or so laziness, yeah, any of those things I think it's uh, yeah, the part's cool, Like I don't need to write something else, or you know, the song's pretty good, let's just put it out, you know, but you know but you also know if your partner or collaborator too, like if they've really like I I've joking, I've joked with you about this too Like I will send ideas to you and your way of interpreting things is like maybe I'm not hearing it fully the way you're hearing it, because I hear things too, and I hear a song like, oh, I can hear this being this way, or I hear the guitar part or whatever, and I've had to learn like it's not a personal thing, like it's just how we each other interpret stuff.
Speaker 2:It's different. Like our writing dynamic has changed and evolved as well. So it's like if I send ideas to you, you go, yeah, that's good, I like it. Or, oh, yeah, keep developing that. Maybe that's something and it's also pushes me like, okay, that person I wanted to impress is kind of validated, that maybe I'm on something, so maybe I should keep pursuing this.
Speaker 2:Or if you go, yeah, it's okay, but I think there's maybe something better Then I go back to that drawing board and I'm like I'm invigorated or I'm inspired, or maybe I'm just like, oh, I'm going to show this, I'm going to show this guy and I'm going to come back with something that is better and ultimately, that's what you're wanting to do. You have to push each other. I think great bands are people that you know. You may have a band of four or five people more, but ultimately, I imagine a lot of people focus on one or two people. That tend to be the people that write in the band.
Speaker 2:You know said we love Michael, and Michael's an incredible drummer. Due to circumstance, though, it's been harder for him to be able to actively get into the songwriting piece of this. So when we get him a demo, we're like, yeah, we're pretty happy with that. Can you get some great drums on there? But then he'll come and do something like, hey, but maybe you should change the riff on this second time around, and it ends up being genius and I'm like, oh damn well, okay, yeah, I think that's where he gets most of his creative input is it's sort of like adding the fine detail to the sculpture, you know?
Speaker 1:so he's not just thinking drums, he's. He's thinking okay, I'm playing on this, he's got the freshest ears on it of anyone, and so it's not like the whole song needs to be rewritten or anything like that. But he's going to hear all these finishing touches, these details, ways that something could have more impact, not necessarily that we miss, but just that he's really good at hearing those kinds of things. So I think a lot of times, bringing him in later is advantageous for all of us, because that's a that's an area where he really excels, I think.
Speaker 1:And if you just like anybody, like if you give them an idea too early and you have a vision, you're hearing the elements that aren't there yet in your head. He's not a mind reader. You're not a mind reader. It's the same reason why some of your ideas excite me and others maybe don't, even if they're good and you believe in them, is like I couldn't even tell you when I'm writing. Is like I couldn't even tell you when I'm writing what's going to trigger that. That feeling in me of this needs to be something. It's purely an intuition and I'm just out there hunting for it and so, like, if you send me an idea, I don't hear all the things around your idea that are exciting you about it or where you feel like it could go. Even if you give me a little write-up on, hey, I feel like this could be kind of like this meets this I, I might go okay. Like sometimes it'll hit that button, yeah, in my brain that makes me go, that's a thing, yeah, and other times it won't. It actually does not mean at all it's a good or bad idea. It just means that I don't hear something there yet that makes me go okay, this needs to be next on the docket, which is, I think, the same thing for Michael.
Speaker 1:If we give him something too early in the process, he's not hearing the things that we're hearing, so he's filling in the blanks or not with whatever just happens to come to mind. I think it's harder to figure out. How do you fit in and help develop something when you're in that place, right? And so I like the sort of staged approach a little bit, where usually one of us will come up with the beginning of something, a chorus, a riff and a verse, uh, something to go on.
Speaker 1:You know, more than just like, here's eight bars of a chord progression, right, right, right, and then that turns into us going okay, like you know, let's, let's mix our ideas in the pot, see where we get to, and then we get further down the road to where the song is starting to take shape, and then it's bring Michael in and let him give his fresh perspective on it, not just drum wise, but you know, with all those, like we were talking about before, those details. Yeah, you know, there's, on some level, like specialization in the songwriting and performance process, you know but it does help make song and there's there's definitely places there on our first album.
Speaker 2:That was certainly like that. I know we've said we preface this by saying we weren't going to talk a lot about our own shit, but I know a lot of this podcast has been a little bit about that. But honestly, the essence of it is really talking about our relationship as collaborators, how it has worked for us and you know a lot of what some of the pitfalls can be, what some of the successes can be. And, yeah, um, in hopes that if you're out there and you're you're hearing this and you are working with someone, or you're just about to start to, or you're you're in the hunt for someone there you know, be open to their ideas, define that common language with one another so that you can talk in a way that you both understand.
Speaker 1:We glossed over that a little bit, but that's worth underlining I think, is that you have to develop shorthand with one another, whether you're talking about specific references to songs or artists that you love, or whether it's frequencies or vibes or anything like that. I think that goes a long way. And being able to get on the same page quickly when you're working on an idea Like if I can throw out a song and you go, oh, okay, I understand the maybe the broad reference for what this is yeah, it helps connect the dots so much faster, yeah.
Speaker 2:And that and that that. That only comes in time, so it doesn't develop overnight. It's a part, just like the dating and the relationship and the intimacy and all that, where you, you begin to be able to start to finish each other's sentences in a way, in a very beautiful symbiotic way, where like, oh okay, I get it, you're going for this kind of thing, or but but also where you can surprise someone to right you know like.
Speaker 2:well, I hear what you're saying but I think you, what about if you do this? Yeah Right. And you're like, oh shoot, that's amazing, Never thought of that, I never thought of that. So I think the ultimate of this to wrap it all is is you?
Speaker 2:know you're out there be patient, find the person that you click with, date them in the musical sense, right, yeah, uh, get to know who they are, speak that, start to learn that common language and find out. Is this a person that we can really, that I can trust with ideas that will push me, that will that I can trust to be pushed, um, that we can really start to work on something that you both care about, that you both want to really, you know, develop and and make something out of and again realize that it's a process and some days are going to be great and some days are going to suck, and that's okay and the grand scheme is your best yeah, there's so much to be gained from having people in your corner that you can work with on whatever level that is.
Speaker 1:And you know, to finish off, I guess, with like your, your dating metaphor, not every relationship needs to be long term, right. Right, I mean, like some people, you hang out, it's cool, it's whatever, and it, you know, flames out, that's okay. I, I've worked with plenty of really excellent musicians and creative people and friends even, um, that you know, for whatever reason, like you know it, it just we weren't on the same page trying to do the same thing, or you know, and that's okay, things change too.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, totally. And so you try to figure out well, who, who are those people? And uh, so find your people. That's that's what I would say. Cause, even on a more personal side, is, you know you have people to lean on. I mean, you know people who give you a reason to keep working on it, because it can be so easy to let the thing that you love to things that can get in the way. Uh, it's sort of like having a gym buddy or you know anything like that, and accountability partner and accountability buddy, yeah, yeah, you have.
Speaker 1:You have people who you're working together with toward a common goal. It's like team sports. There are plenty of solo sports that are, that are great, um, but team sports are just a different thing, you know, and um, that camaraderie that you get and that support that you get and, ultimately, the, the more interesting art that you can create, um, I think the upside is huge. And so, you know, my recommendation is find people to work with, you know, and uh, and that might take working with a lot of different people, yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, speed dating.
Speaker 2:Get through it, figure out what, what, what works, what's not working, what clicks, what doesn't click, and, um, he, he said, just be open to the whole thing. Uh, eventually you stumble upon someone who's like okay, this feels good and I think we can do some really great things, and then the rest of it is just learning as you go and being okay to go. Yeah, that kicked my ass today, because I don't know shit about what I'm doing or screwing something up or not hitting the record button or whatever.
Speaker 2:All of that stuff is okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because, in the end, when you both go back and you're listening to that song or you're watching your video or whatever the case is, and you both look at each other, and you have that spark and that thing. That's that's why you did it, that was the whole reason, yeah, and that just gives you more fuel to go back and keep doing it and doing it, and doing it, um, and doing it.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah Well, that's a perfect spot to hop off today, I think, um, whether you're watching, you're listening. We thank you, we appreciate you hanging out with us. There is going to be so much more to come, so many more topics and guests. As we said at the top of the show, if you are interested in connecting with us about anything ideas, questions, guests, anything of that sort the sonic al, sonic alchemycom Um, you'll be able to find us on social media as well. We encourage and are excited to hear from, uh, from each and every one of you, whoever wants to reach out and, uh, we will see you again soon.
Speaker 2:Hell yeah.
Speaker 1:Hell yeah.