The Sonic Alchemy
Welcome to Sonic Alchemy, the ultimate podcast for creatives looking to elevate their craft and gain insider insights into the world of artistry. Hosted by Justin Webster and Kevin Crouch of the band The Silver Echo, this engaging show provides a dynamic platform to showcase artists and delve into the myriad skills and layers that contribute to a successful creative career.
Each episode of Sonic Alchemy offers a blend of captivating interviews and insightful discussions. Our interviews feature a diverse array of artists who share their unique journeys, techniques, and sources of inspiration. These conversations provide listeners with a rare glimpse into the personal and professional experiences that shape creative success.
In addition to interviews, Justin and Kevin host thought-provoking discussions on various topics relevant to creatives. These episodes explore everything from honing specific skills and overcoming creative blocks to navigating the business side of art and staying inspired in a rapidly changing world.
Discover how successful artists overcome challenges and find their voice.
Gain practical advice on developing skills, managing a creative career, and staying motivated.
Connect with a community of passionate creatives who are dedicated to their craft.
Sonic Alchemy is more than a podcast; it's a journey into the heart of creativity. Join Justin and Kevin as they uncover the alchemical process that turns passion into artistry and artistry into success. Whether you're an aspiring artist or an established creator, Sonic Alchemy offers the insights and inspiration you need to thrive.
Tune in and transform your creative potential into gold with Sonic Alchemy!
The Sonic Alchemy
Passion Over Fame: Crafting a Musical Legacy
Drawing inspiration from Alan Watts' "The Wisdom of Insecurity," we navigate the complex landscape of expectation and reality. Reflecting on the divergence between youthful dreams and current realities, we explore how understanding external influences can alleviate guilt and resentment, leading to a more fulfilling life. Bono’s insights about his son's musical journey provide a poignant backdrop as we discuss the unique pressures on children of successful artists, emphasizing the importance of carving out one’s own path amid towering legacies.
Ever wondered how social media has reshaped the music industry? We recount our own nostalgic memories of iconic concerts and the transformative rise of bands like Nirvana. While platforms like YouTube have democratized music creation and sharing, they also bring challenges of market oversaturation. Throughout the episode, we stress the importance of genuine passion in pursuing music, rather than fame or fortune, and discuss the pressures faced by artists like Billie Eilish to replicate early success. From the highs and lows of touring to the power of collaboration, this episode is a heartfelt tribute to the joy of staying true to one's artistic identity.
Learn more about The Silver Echo at thesilverecho.com
all right, hello and good morning, good morning, good morning. So I have to start off with the a shout out because I'm in mourning this morning. Yeah, so I got my Niners mug. Uh, RIP to the season.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I should have worn the bills hat today. I didn't even think about that. But my week, my morning, was the week prior, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know it's a music show. We won't stay here too long, but uh, I'm definitely a a big fan, so it's good to do something. Uh, positive today.
Speaker 2:Positive, yeah, yes that is exactly it. What did I say yesterday in our text?
Speaker 1:uh, at least there's madden yeah, if you want to relive and win your season yeah, I will be doing that.
Speaker 2:At least there's a at least there's a game that allows you to hopefully do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so that we both don't get our asses handed to us. Anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that said, welcome to the Sonic Alchemy. I'm Justin, I'm Kevin Yep. Today we have we're actually shooting a couple episodes today but what we're talking about today is the concept of making it as an artist, and what does that mean? What's your definition, which I'm excited to talk about, because this is something. Over the years I think we both have thought about a lot, and I imagine other people do as well. So, that said Kev, what is making it? So, uh, that said kev, what is making?
Speaker 2:it. I think it's just uh, man, I imagine that there's variations of that that we all have throughout life. I think for me now, you know, 50 years deep in this life, that I have making it to me has taken on different things. I think when I was, you know, if I'm in high school and I'm playing in a, a band, a cover band or whatever, and we're trying to do original songs, I'm like, oh my god, this would be so great if we could play, you know, and have the big, you know, whatever. Yeah and I don't think I ever let go of God this would be so great if we could play and have the big whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't think I ever let go of that. I think in different times I've definitely felt like that accomplishment that you associate with seeing music videos that see a band playing in front of a huge crowd or going and seeing an artist and feeling like I need to be up there rather than here. Those kind of things kind of always had stuck in my brain, I think, is the litmus for whatever making it would be. But as we started on our journey writing music and we were able to and I told you this the other day it changed. It definitely changed for me.
Speaker 2:You know, I thought there was one part when we were writing the record, our first record, where I thought, oh, wow, you know there was a lot of talk about, okay, we're about to do this, but now comes the hard part, which is actually go out and perform it, and I was.
Speaker 2:There was a part of me that was like wait, what we got to go? Oh, yeah, well, yeah, I guess you know that does go with it. You got to go and play these songs to people and there was a part that was terrifying to me about that. But then there was also a part that was like what if that takes off, then what you know, the creature comforts of a day job that you know get you benefits and all this kind of stuff, you start to settle into your life, you know, and that dream, for whatever it is, of being a musician or an artist or in a band and playing and touring the world, it kind of quiets down and you go okay, I need to focus on doing the day job and getting that going. So when the realization or the possibility of us being able to go and actually play started to become more of a reality, I was like, oh my God, what is this going to be?
Speaker 2:How do I juggle both? You know I'm married, I take care of my family. What is that going to look like? So, but I think I've settled into the understanding that, to answer that question to me, making it now is the achievement of making the song and getting that out to people to be able to ingest and hear and, uh, critique or comment, um or enjoy. Maybe it does something for them. It takes on a different life that neither you or I or michael thought of. Um, that's incredibly satisfying to me. Playing live, I think, for the very few times that we've gotten to do that as a band also incredibly satisfying.
Speaker 2:The very first show that we did. I had a very hard time sleeping and it was really weird because I came back home. Lisa, my wife and my mom they're both there seeing us perform and it was surreal Because they're seeing it and they're like, wow, they're really good. But this is weird because I'm seeing them like I would go and see an artist that I love, but it's also family. So I remember coming home after that night and them both kind of reacting to me in a weird way.
Speaker 1:Oh, really it was really strange yeah.
Speaker 2:It was like you were kind of like larger than life, but then you're also, you know, for my mom, you know it's like okay, that's my son. And for lisa it's like that's, that's my hot husband up there bringing it down.
Speaker 1:So yeah, playing live always works for that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So that that was a that was certainly a very exciting piece for me and that I definitely think that making it to me is now just more a sense of accomplishment, of achieving a goal, whether it be finishing your song, getting your songs out there, getting the opportunity to play and honestly, at this point I don't care and you and I have talked about this a lot too but I don't care if it's playing in front of 10 people. If those 10 people are really in it and they're there and they love what you're doing, that's super exciting. Making a video which I know we'll talk about some other podcast that also felt really exciting.
Speaker 2:You had a whole community of people that were around us, that were friends of ours, helping us make our first video. That also felt like a big sense of accomplishment. So there have been moments, I think, where I felt like we made it. We're not on the tour bus and we're not out there schlepping it every night and doing what a lot of artists do. Um, I think I would enjoy that, but it would also come with a lot of uh, give and take.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's so interesting, um, when this topic was brought up. What excited me about it is that I guess my definition has changed so much over the years, and it sounds like it has for you too. I think there's different levels to it, right, because there's like the there's the personal level, there's the professional level and, uh, you know, when it comes to creating and pushing yourself, I think that process really never ends, and so, on one hand, you never make it right, cause there's always something new to make, um, but when I go back, you know I started playing music and having. But when I go back, you know, I started playing music and having.
Speaker 1:Well, I started playing music at like nine, but my aspirations to want to really do that like be a musician, be an artist, was in high school, and so at that point, you know, like probably most people, you have these visions of grandeur and, uh, you know, I assumed, you know I'll go pay my dues for a year, right, right, cause that's how long you pay dues for. Yeah, maybe for some um, and you know I'd be in some touring act and you know that'd be cool. Uh, and it didn't really work out that way for me. Um, I think part of it is just growing up and realizing that expectations were a little unrealistic.
Speaker 1:Um and you know that's not saying that, uh, if you're 15 and that's what you want to do, that that won't happen for you. Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:There's so many incredibly talented people in different situations out there. But, um, I think it's forced me to consider over the years what is it that I really want out of this and how much is enough? Right, because it would always be nice to have more, play more shows, make more money, put out more records, you know. Whatever right, grow the thing and keep going. Um, but I think my most core definition of it now is being in a position where I can regular, regularly, make art, cause that hasn't always been the case. Um, I'm really glad that early, early on and this would be in high school, I guess that I had some equipment at the time to be able to record my own music.
Speaker 1:Now, it was shitty. It sounded awful. I basically stole Michael, our drummers. His parents had bought him, this boss, what was the model of that thing? Like BR 800 or something like that, and it was, uh, what they call the studio in the box. They used to sell these at guitar center. Yeah, so it had a hard drive in it and it had connections for speakers and headphones.
Speaker 2:You, had the hard drive? Yeah, oh see, I had. I think I had the task cam with the tape. Sure, yeah, the balance but the same idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah, same idea. Um, this was pretty modern at the time, but this is probably like 2005. And, uh, his parents got him the one with eight channels, cause, you know, he's a drummer, so he had mics and all this. But, um, I remember we were, we were playing together, uh, me, michael and our friend Tyler, and we wrote our first song and I'm going man, this is awesome, but no one's going to hear it if, if, we don't have a way to, like, you know, unless they're in this room with us, right? And so I look over in the corner on this like fold up table, is this a recorder? And uh, I'm like Mike, let's, let's hook this thing up, let's record our song.
Speaker 1:I don't remember exactly what he said, but basically he was like, yeah, I don't know how to use that thing which, if anyone knows Michael, that sounds a lot like him now. But so, you know, I'm pushing him like dude, come on, because at that point I was new enough around him and his family that it felt a bit intrusive or a bit presumptuous maybe for me to dive in there myself. And so I'm trying to get him to do it and I'm like well, dude, read the manual and he hits me with. Well, you read the manual.
Speaker 2:So I did, I did. I'm the drummer I don't want to. Yeah, yeah, he just writes hits. Yeah, just write hits guys, which is fine he can.
Speaker 1:He can keep doing that, cause it turned into a passion for me. Anyway, fast forward, you know, uh, I was able to record our ideas, my ideas, all that kind of stuff moving forward. So luckily I you know, the point being is I am now and have most of my career been in a position to uh, be in control of my own destiny as far as making stuff Right. Obviously, limitations are involved when you don't have a big studio and you got to find workarounds, but I've never been limited on my ability to make a song Right, Um and so, whether it is or isn't a passion for those out there that might be listening, I would recommend at least empower yourself there, because if all else fails, um, and I never play another show. Because if all else fails, um, and I never play another show, no one ever hears the music that we make. I'm not going to stop making it because I can't Right. So I think I've made it already in the sense that I have everything that I need available. You know it's off camera, but my little home studio set up over here, you know we've got great gear to be able to make stuff and uh, so at the heart of all of it. To me that's making it.
Speaker 1:But I think it's an important discussion because, just like me at 15, or you at whatever age, you get caught up in what you're seeing out there, right, the bands that you love, the artists that you love. You know you watch the award shows or the YouTube clips of you know people playing in front of stadiums or whatever. Or you know you hear about record breaking sales. You know Taylor Swift or whoever right, right, and it's easy to start comparing yourself to that and I think, aspirationally, that's great. You know, I wouldn't tell anyone to. You know, don't try to be the biggest artist in the world. You know that's what you want to do. Go for it, right. But I think if you're not careful, you can miss what's right in front of you sometimes and you can find yourself in a cause. I've been there. In fact, I hadn't planned on talking about this, but it just occurred to me that one of the songs on our first album, chasing Ghosts, is actually all about this topic, because you can find yourself really dissatisfied with where you're at and miss the forest for the trees and the fact that I am a musician, I am an artist today. Uh, now what I love for it to pay my bills Absolutely, and am I going to keep shooting for that Totally? But it's not because I haven't made it already, I think and I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with this assessment, right, like everyone's got to make up their own definition of what that means for them. Um, but, uh, but really only because I just want to do more of what I love, you know, and I don't have any desire to be, you know, wealthy or even famous, for that matter. Being being famous doesn't really sound that fun to me. Um, but I, you know, I would love to be in a position one day where my day job, so to speak, is making stuff, whether it's for our band or working with other artists, cause I'd love to do more producing. I've done some of that, um, I've certainly helped, uh, you know, record albums and singles and things like that. So just putting myself in a position where I have more time dedicated to do those things.
Speaker 1:But I guess, just to circle back on that song idea, that was a big moment for me. I remember, honestly, it might've been from me reading Alan Watts, which is really funny because I mean, that's a most people listening to this probably don't know Alan Watts, but he's, he's a. He was popular during like the seventies, I believe, and he was a philosopher and I remember reading a book of his, the Wisdom of Insecurity, and it really floored me. It was way, way too heady for me to really understand at the time. Yeah, but I remember thinking like, okay, I guess the thought was like I was feeling really dissatisfied because I felt like my life was going to go a different direction. I really felt at 15, 16, that what I had envisioned back then was what was going to happen.
Speaker 1:And then, when it didn't and my life took these detours, um, I started. Really, you know, initially you give yourself some, some credit, like, okay, well, I'll give it a little more time, I'll do this, I'll do that, it's fine, it's all going to come back around. The more time goes on, you feel like the path that you had envisioned and the path you're on really start to diverge. And then, at a certain point around the time I wrote that song, I felt like they were so diverged that there was no chance of them coming back, like they were so diverged that there was no chance of them coming back, and that left me kind of depressed, like thinking man, I must've missed my window. Um, you know, my, my, my chance to do this is over. You know, my life just took this other path and I I was probably feeling a bit resentful about it. Um, but I had to ask myself.
Speaker 1:This question is like at every point, do I feel like I did my best, which is a hard question to answer, and I'm sure there were moments where I didn't, but all in all, I really felt like I did, and what that led me to realize is that there was no other place that I could have ended up than exactly where I was, because you can't do any better than your best and you can't control the factors of the world. You can't control most things, and so you're kind of along for the ride, so all you can do is put your best foot forward. The result is less important because you're there. There's no other way it could have ended up. So, instead of me feeling guilty that somehow I messed up and deviated from this path, I envisioned as an idiot 15 year old, right, that's kind of what it comes down to is like.
Speaker 1:Why am I holding myself accountable to this thing that I dreamed up when I was that young Cause I didn't know anything about the world Certainly naive, like probably most people at that age and uh, and so that really reframed things for me and allowed me to say like, okay, well, if that's the case, then I'm exactly where I should be, regardless of what other people would project on me, of whether they find me successful or not. And that's okay, like everyone's going to have their interpretation of that, but for me, you know, I sit back and go like, okay, this lets some pressure off, because I'm not playing catch up to anything, I'm not trying to rectify something that went wrong. I'm where I should be. So what can I do with what I have now?
Speaker 1:Um, and that was probably mid cycle of us writing and recording that first album that that thought finally occurred to me. And so I think it's important for people to consider not just your motivations but what your definition of success is, because if you're not careful, you you might find yourself in a place where you may might be meeting your definition and you just don't know it and you're being unhappy or holding yourself back for kind of silly reasons. At least, I know that I was, so that's why I think this topic is potentially a really powerful one, because if you can sit back and find a quiet place and really get in touch with yourself on why did I start doing this and what is it that I really care about, and how can I do that with where I am today, you know it doesn't mean lowering your bar of success, but I think it means getting more in tune with what that definition of success really is.
Speaker 2:There was a a, it's so funny. We just this is such a great topic and I was just listening to a uh, another podcast, smartless, uh, they had Bono on this past week and he was talking about you know, cause they were asking him questions about how is it? Now, you know you have both, your, your son, who is fronting a band, uh, inhaler, which is also really great, right, and again, you know you. One would make the assumption, of course, bono's kids are going to be creative. I would assume, yeah, and they're also going to be successful because they they might be riding the coattails of his success and all the people you know they might be riding the coattails of his success and all the people you know it becomes what, what people would believe to be an easier path. Right, you have this massively successful artist.
Speaker 2:The benefit of nepotism, yeah, but also the genetics, but also the uh, that sort of uh critique. It's like, are you going to be as good Can do you sing as well? Yeah, it's like are you going to be as good, do you sing as well? All these kind of things. But the point of it was, yeah, people probably have higher expectations of those people.
Speaker 2:I'll paraphrase this because I know I won't get exactly how he put it, but I think his wife was. They were having a discussion when their son was younger and he was into video games and just sitting there kind of playing video games. But he had also been playing guitar and was incredible, yeah, and his wife's telling Bono like you know, we got to get motivated. You know, he's just going to be sitting here playing video games and miss sort of the opportunity.
Speaker 2:I think the question kind of got kind of like were you really kind of pushing him towards, you know, getting into music or all that, or was that something that both of you were cognizant of, and say, oh no, we already had to deal with it with you and touring the world and all the craziness that happens with that. Uh, I don't want my kids to have to deal with that same thing, but it came out naturally they're having this discussion, discussion. So he goes in there and he's like, hey, uh, you're getting really good at this uh game, whatever the game was, he's like oh yeah yeah, yeah, and he's, you know.
Speaker 2:Of course, as you can imagine, I think of this as hysterical, because you know, bono is larger than life, right, but the kids never think of you know, no, bono is larger than life Right, but the kids never think of you know, no matter who you are.
Speaker 1:I'm sure he's just dad Dave.
Speaker 2:Grohl's talked about this as well. Like you know, the kids are like okay, yeah, whatever, thanks, yeah, dad, you're a dork, you know.
Speaker 2:So, he's sitting there playing the video game or whatever, and Bono's trying to have this kind of conversation. Like you know, you could be the best at this game ever. You could really. If you really focus all your energy and time, you could be the best at it. It's like, yeah, yeah, okay, really, you think so. Huh, yeah, yeah, he goes and that's that's gonna be um, girls gonna be really attracted to that.
Speaker 2:And he's like oh, I see you're having one with me, yeah okay, yeah you're just, you're giving me shit yeah, yeah he's like look, continue to do that, but just don't forget you're really great, you're a really great guitar player, don't forget that. And that was kind of it. And then he went and he's like, okay, and then he goes and becomes his own thing and they are pretty successful, by whatever definition you might want to call that Right. Well, they're doing it. Right, they're doing it. Yeah, and they were doing it like they were a high school band. You know him and his friends and they met and they became inhaler and they're they're doing pretty well.
Speaker 2:One thing that I thought about when you were talking about this too and I think a lot of people think about this too, and I guess it brings up a good question, or maybe the next part of this topic is like how much does the culture around this influence the idea of what making it is?
Speaker 2:And we go back to that piece about when I was a kid. You know I was fortunate enough, like I had friends. I didn't have it. I was in a very rural area of my small town and we didn't have mtb, so I had to go into an area that would get that cable so that I could go. So I would go to a friend's house and we'd watch uh videos and I would get to see this kind of thing and that was sort of opening my eyes to that part of that, that culture, and it would very much influence that and made me think a lot about man. This would be so great, you know, even when we you know, my friend Greg and I were trying to play songs in his house and learn cover tunes and all that and try and do the poses and all this kind of stuff, because we're coming up in the era of hair metal.
Speaker 2:So we're doing all the crazy. You know all this kind of stuff. There's a whole crazy story about him doing the guitar. Spin that I'll say but it did not end well. So anybody out there, please don't do that. Even if you have locking strap, like strap locks or whatever, don't, please, don't do this.
Speaker 1:I love the videos on like do you ever watch the compilations of those fails the fails? Oh my God, dude. Like, do you ever watch the compilations of those fails, the fails?
Speaker 2:yeah, oh my god, dude, I that's like a whole day for me of just laughing, but that but, but we were so in it.
Speaker 1:But let me tell you, though, sorry. So as as much as maybe it's not recommended, I have pulled those off.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, and people do love it yeah people do love it it. It's hot shit for sure.
Speaker 1:As long as you have a backup guitar, just don't do it with your favorite. Or your very own, only guitar ever that you saved up all your money to buy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and advisable, yeah, please don't do that and break the neck of the guitar Anyway. So all those things at least for us. Then it was you know you hit Parader magazine, spin Rolling Stone. We would see this and see and kind of read and ingest the culture that way, and that informed how we we thought or perceived what success would be for us if we chose that path.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Now and I'm not out of touch with it, I don't think, I mean, I still very much. I send you YouTube videos of going. Oh my God, can you imagine this? Like watching Oasis play in Nebworth or at Manchester and you see like 200, 300,000 people pogoing. Yeah, Like that gives me chills. I can't even imagine what that feels like for Liam or Noel or any of those guys when they were doing that. I'm like, oh my.
Speaker 1:God yeah that energy is.
Speaker 2:That's insanity, yeah, so I think about what people ingest now in the culture and how it can both be exciting, but it can also be misleading, like that false sense of like, because as many people that that tell you it's a one in a million thing. I think Grohl had talked about this too, like in his book Nirvana never set out to go be this massive, like huge, palatable thing that everyone related to. It was accident, completely accidental, it was counterculture.
Speaker 1:It was kind of meant to be the opposite of that, so it was ironic that it turned into, you know, a global phenomenon.
Speaker 2:They love Sonic Youth, and Sonic Youth played theaters that were not huge, but they're like, yeah, this band's cool, maybe we could just do that, and that would be our definition of that. They never wanted to change the world in the way that that happened, and you see the the downside of that you know, in a very brutal way, yeah. So I often wonder and I guess asking you the same, like you know, how much does that influence people? Now, how much do you see, like because it's the YouTube phenomenon too Like you got some kid out there playing a video game that people watch and he gets paid to do that. So that still blows my mind.
Speaker 2:The influencers, the culture where people get paid to do that. I mean, I know it's not as prevalent today maybe as it was a few years ago, but that kind of culture is out there and it permeates people and it makes them think like, oh, if this idiot can do that, so can I. Yeah Right, so making it then gets a bit distorted.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I think things change so rapidly now that I think people are like there's always new platforms and the new thing, right Um, you know it was my space, and then it was Facebook. And Right Um, you know it, it was my space and then it was Facebook and then it was, you know, yada, yada, like all these other different things. Um, I think there's two sides to this coin. I think people need larger than life heroes, right, Usually those are the people who get you into it in the first place Sing slash, you know on stage, you know ripping with GNR or whoever.
Speaker 1:Right, you see, the the big people who are so talented and so great that they deserve to be where they are, so great that they deserve to be where they are. Um, so those people serve as an inspiration and I think they spark that creativity or that excitement for people because they're so available, right, Whether that was finding them in a record store or whether that's MTV or YouTube or whatever the hell Right Um. But I agree with you that I think the downside is is if that, if you're not careful, um, your subconscious, or what you're seeing out there from the elite, becomes your only definition of success, and it can really undermine you and your ability to create great things, Because now you know, people talk about this as a good thing and a bad thing. Whatever it is, everyone's got a laptop. I mean hell, we do it Right. I mean we we completely self-produce, self everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so anyone can make something and because of that, and distribute it and everything, that means that the market is flooded, so it's so hard to find great new artists, um, even if you're trying to do it on purpose, um, so it makes it harder for someone to get a piece of the pie, I think. But at the same time, like the reason why you get into it for most people, like if your intentions are pure and it's not just you know, I want to get girls, or, uh, you know, I want to make a boatload of money. Right, if that is your, I guess, your motivation, I would recommend uh, you know, certainly you don't have to be a rock God to get girls with a guitar, um, but also, you're probably not going to make a boatload of money. And uh, hey, uh, far be it from me to tell anyone that they're not going to make money doing it, cause certainly people do and I think that's awesome. So, you know, I'm not, I'm not trying to uh throw stones at anyone, um, but I do think that that can't be the motivation. So I think you know you need social media and all these outlets. You know, you see someone with a bajillion followers.
Speaker 1:It's easy to think like, okay, wow, I want to be that guy, I want to have all these people you know, like I think some people get into it for the validation too. It's like, oh man, wouldn't it be so cool to have, you know, 3 million people tell me how great I am every time I post a video on Instagram or you know, and there are going to be those people you know, and there are going to be those people, um, but it's kind of a shallow pursuit and there's so many things culturally with the way that things are set up. I mean, everyone's showing their best side and, you know, doing 5,000 takes to get the one good one. You don't see any of the stuff behind it or the thousands of hours that someone put into getting good and maybe struggling for a really long time.
Speaker 1:Most not all, but most big artists have a big struggle story or they took an incredible risk to put themselves in a in a situation where they had even a possibility of success, yeah, in a situation where they had even a possibility of success, yeah, and those things aren't talked about very often, and so I do think that it's deceptive a little bit not intentionally so, maybe for some, but I think it's deceptive to completely base all of your ideas of success off of just what you see, because there's so much that you don't see and yeah, yeah, I mean it's really interesting to think about, because there are a lot of ways to get seduced and not realize that maybe you're being seduced by someone else's definition, or maybe by your own insecurities or ego getting in the way without even noticing it. Right, like hey, you know, I'd love to have a million likes on a post, or you know, but but at the end of the day, that's not why I do it. I do it because I need to do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we talked about that too. Like the music for us is in the blood and we, I think, regardless of the output or getting it out there, which is certainly the by-product of it, we don't exist without being able to have that, um ability to be able to put something there. I was literally just talking to you about this. There were periods for me where I fell out of love with playing keyboard or, you know, piano, synths, whatever, right, and because it didn't feel like it was part of the thing that was going to get me there. So I'm like, oh okay, well, I gotta play guitar or I'm gonna have to play bass or whatever, because maybe that's what I can do to get in a band, because no one's really keyboards weren't really cool at a certain period of my life, right when I'm a teenager.
Speaker 2:It's like I said it's hair metal and you're not seeing anybody that's doing it. That's really cool.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a lesson too. Is that all things fall in and out of fashion? Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Because if you go back, like for me early, early eighties, you think about bands, no-transcript, you that way, but there were places where I just fell out of out of that instrument and, coming back to it, you know, finding another artist that gets me back into going. Okay, this can be cool and can be expressive in a totally different way that I had never thought of. Pulled me back.
Speaker 2:You know, I'll thank Trent Reznor again, uh, for that, and this will be one of a thousand times that I mentioned his name, but he did. You know, that did bring me back into that where I was like, oh my God, what is this? This felt like it was from another world when I first heard that pretty hate machine and I'm like, okay, and I was feeling the angst and I'm feeling that type of thing, and I immediately went out and I'm like, okay, I have to go buy a synthesizer. I have to figure out a way to be able to record stuff like this. Now, Right Cause, now I know, now I now it it awoken something in me that I was like, ah, okay, I can do this, I can finally get back to this. And I think at that point I had a cheap Washburn acoustic guitar and I'm like a cheap Washburn acoustic guitar and I'm like I suck at this. I suck, I suck so bad at playing guitar. But I wanted to because I saw everyone out there. I'm like, okay, well, success equals playing guitar. But I've, I've fallen into these pitfalls a lot.
Speaker 2:I'll go back to high school because we talk about like the validation piece and now it's on a grandiose scale, but then for me it was. It was similar, Like there's a piano that's in our auditorium where we would practice with chorus and all that. And I was a band nerd unapologetically a band nerd played in marching band, played for chorus, played for the plays and musicals and all that. I did all that stuff. But on our lunch break the auditorium would be open. People could go, kind of go sit in there, you know, and I felt like I could play. You know, I was going in and I'd be playing like send her my love by journey or something like that, and I'm like, okay, I'm going to swoon some, some of the chicks Uh, this one's for the ladies, for the ladies, yeah. And you know you would get a few that would come over and they would hear you play. But I'm not a singer, I was never a singer.
Speaker 1:So you mean, you can't take down? Uh, Steve.
Speaker 2:Perry Couldn't take down Steve Perry, even if I wanted to. Uh, but I could play the song. So people would come over and it was like you get a few girls that you might like, and that was my. That was my end, that was my way to kind of go. Okay, maybe, maybe a girl will find me interesting because I can play an instrument Right. I was also giving lessons to a guy who was a very good friend of mine and I was teaching him, but he did not have the patience to learn how to play a journey song. He wanted to learn like okay, give me the what. What's the quick thing that I can do? Give me chopsticks, son, not even that. It was like can you just teach me how three chords will go together Like CF and G, like a one, four, five type?
Speaker 2:chord progression, sure, and I remember going over to his house he had a piano there and I would teach him like, okay, here's how you could write a song and if you want you can put the minor in it, if you want, to kind of color it up. And you know, maybe after I don't know I know this is memory doesn't serve me well, but I would say maybe I gave him like three, maybe four lessons, right, just teaching him how to do chords, right. And this son of a bitch, he comes into the, I come into the auditorium. I'm like I'm coming to sit back down to do my swooning Females, come come to me please, yeah right, because otherwise I'm an acne filled nerd.
Speaker 2:uh, but please, you know, maybe the music's gonna do it. And I go in here and I hear some guy just ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, whatever the most simplistic thing ever, with these three chords, and I was like that dude is up there and he's taking my spot. Yeah, and now and he's made up some ridiculous lyrics and he's singing, which is something I couldn't do. Oh, wow, yeah. And now all the girls, all, all.
Speaker 2:Every girl in the school, Every yeah, every girl in the school has. Yeah, every girl in the school has basically surrounded this piano and then listening to this, and I'm going I created you what?
Speaker 1:what have you?
Speaker 2:done to me yeah, um the highest level of betrayal it was so heartbreaking, um, because, but it also again, that's one of those things. It's like did you get into doing this because of that? That's ridiculous, kevin. Why on earth did you come on? Calm down? Good for him, you know, and that was great, and that's good. And eventually, you know, his three chords didn't play out. You, a couple months into his tour of the auditorium every lunch break and he would play the same old, same old, same old, because he didn't have anything else.
Speaker 1:And it's like hit a ceiling pretty quick yeah.
Speaker 2:Like I heard this already dude, yeah, you know. So it started to peter out pretty quick.
Speaker 1:Play free bird.
Speaker 2:So I had moved on and gone and gotten over and I'm like this is this is going to be a quick fall, you know, but it was definitely a bitch Karma is a bitch, but it was an important lesson about that too, because I I there was a question for me at that very moment where I was like, why am I doing it? And I think at that point, you know, again, for any teenager out there who's playing an instrument or interested in doing this or making art of any kind, there are motivations out there that, like you said, if you're not careful, can lead you down a pretty crazy path. Yeah, and especially with the world of social media, you know it can be a very great thing. And again, I know, even for us, you know, we put our video out and we're like, oh my God, we got 20,000 hits.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what yeah? Wow, you know but even that damn famous. Yeah, we're so famous right now.
Speaker 2:This is incredible, holy shit. 20,000 people watched us play this song.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like getting a $20 bill when you're like 10. I'm so rich.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, I'm so rich and then you find out they're like oh yeah, well people, you know, they basically sit through 30, 40 seconds of this video so they can get a free thing or free coin to play some game or whatever. Yeah, you know and sort of that whole thing. You know, it kind of rips the, the fantasy of what, what this is, and it brings you back down to reality.
Speaker 1:But even the legitimate views make it right. 30, 45 seconds in and you're like, ah, all right, move on to the next thing, move on to the next thing, move on to the next. It's not for everybody right, and so you go oh man, I really thought everyone was gonna, yeah, check out this whole thing I thought this is gonna blow us through the stratosphere, yeah you know.
Speaker 2:But again it's, it's very deceptive. So it's like I just I came back to reality because in the moment of which we did the video, we we had the whole thing and all that kind of stuff. This moment I was like, oh man, okay, this could really happen, and I've only had a few of those in my life, and I know we talked about this last time. You know, you got to tour, you got to do that and that was a very good thing, but also a very challenging thing too. It always sounds cooler than it was, as you say, say, you know, it's not the instagram picture that's your best version.
Speaker 2:No, no, it's the grueling. I'm sitting on the, you know, next to the gas pump eating a slim, jim, you know. Yeah, because our trailers broke down and we got to figure out how to get this, or we need to get gas money or all that kind of stuff the reality of that and oh yeah, you know for, uh, we'll have many a moment to talk about. You know my old, my, my band love murder box still the greatest band name of all time I have to. We'll find that video and and put it out.
Speaker 1:Yes, fantastic name we'll have to watch it on here.
Speaker 2:I'll blame trent for that one too, but know it's not his fault that I had terrible taste in naming a band. But nevertheless again, all of those kinds of things like us doing the record, us getting the video, us going and playing live that was the closest to me ever, what I thought to be that childhood dream of making it. And now I'm just like. I'm so grateful, so immensely grateful, to a have the, the gear and the talent and the, the people in my life that support it, that I can just go home and go. Today I feel like writing a song and, uh, I do it, and that to me, like when I get to a point where I go, yeah, I just want to share it with you.
Speaker 1:I don't care about.
Speaker 2:I don't want to post it right now because to me maybe I isn't ready or whatever, but just getting, just sending it to your friend and going what do you think? And getting validation even there, or saying, oh yeah, I kind of dig this, it's cool, that's it. That to me feels just as great at this moment than playing in front of 300,000 people.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I mean the benefit of more time doing it, I think, helps reveal that. You know use the onion metaphor, right Like there's all these layers, all these things that are great potential things about being an artist, right? Um? But the further that you get into the center, you start to realize for you as a person what's most important. Um, and I would, I would hope, for most people, it is exactly what you just said it's creating art. You know, I think that has to be the most important thing.
Speaker 1:But you said something really interesting a few minutes ago about how, you know, you have been into keyboard and then that wasn't exactly what was popular, so you felt the need to shift elsewhere. Yeah, and I think that's a really, really important point of another pitfall that's really easy to fall into and leads to a couple of other thoughts, but I really believe that you should take in all your influences, like whatever excites you about music, whether it's cool or not, because we mentioned Nirvana and there are so many other examples of this. You know, again, I think what's popular is important. When you're in your I don't know formidable years, you know whatever you want to call it right. You're between, let's say, 14 and you know 21 or whatever. You have all of these things that you know. Of course you're, you're staying up on what's hip and that's important. However, you're probably going to have influences across a spectrum of music and things that you love and that's going to help create whatever your identity is as an artist, and I think it's so important to stick to your guns because, like, the style of music that we do is not what's popular right now, it's just not. I mean it doesn't mean that rock is dead. I don't believe that.
Speaker 1:I hear that argument all the time. I don't buy into it. I think it's alive and well, although, you know it, it certainly isn't at the same level that it was decades past. But, that said, it's what I love and what really motivates me, and there have been times throughout my journey with music where I've felt like I did need to sacrifice what it was that I wanted to do, because I didn't think people would maybe like it, or that it wasn't new enough or, uh, it didn't fit into what someone might hear on the radio, so they wouldn't give it the time of day. If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't do that at all, um, and I would encourage other people not to just flow with what's current. Now, if what's current is really inspiring you, by all means, but if your reason for doing it is because you have self doubt about what it is you really want to be making, I say fuck that. Like, don't fall into that and uh, pursue what really excites you. Um, I think, man, like, if people took anything away from this, I would hope it would almost be that of follow your gut. And sometimes what's also really weird is it can work the other way too.
Speaker 1:Um, when I was in high school probably like a lot of I don't know people my age or people that age I was an angry teenager. I really was. I was super angry. I wanted the craziest, most angry music I could possibly find. Um, and I really fed off of that for a long time and that led me into all kinds of different genres of metal especially was totally my thing. And, uh, eventually I found a conflict within myself, that I started to realize that the music may be that I really loved at that time and I still love, although my my taste had broadened a lot. That was basically all I listened to at that age.
Speaker 1:Um, I realized that not everything that inspired me was what I was meant to make, because my musical voice and my inclinations as a songwriter were very different. I tried to beat my head against that wall for a long time of going well, I really love these bands, so that must mean that's what I'm supposed to make. For a time that was really fun and I wouldn't take any of that back, but I do wish that I would have the thought would have occurred to me. It's like hey, you can love that stuff and then still be okay with making what comes natural to you, because what I aspire to do every time we make a song is create something that I want to listen to and I'm not exactly trying to fill a void in music, necessarily, or anything like that. But I do think it just took me a while to realize not everything you love is what you're going to make, and that's okay. So still be confident to create what comes naturally without falling into the pitfall of, well, I need to be in this box because I love this set of records or whatever, these set of artists, and isn't it weird that I listened to this stuff, but then this other thing comes out.
Speaker 1:I think all that overthinking and overanalyzing and that again, self-doubt or anxiety about it or the ego part of it. Well, this isn't going to be popular, or how does this equal this? It doesn't matter, right, like you take in all these influences, but you can only be you, and if you're chasing being someone else or being something else, then you're going to probably find the pursuit ultimately not worthwhile and you're going to wonder why you're not satisfied, you know. So I think you know, be okay with being who you are and that's a. That's a tall order. I mean, it seems simple, but I think most people struggle with that on some level and it takes a lot of reflection and thinking like, okay, well, what is it that I, that I do well and what is it that I enjoy about? Like I'm trying to write this certain kind of thing why, why, what is it doing for me? And realizing that, whatever the answer is, that's okay.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, I. You made me just think about Billie Eilish, of all people, but I did watch that documentary that she did a couple years back and it absolutely blew my mind. Now, admittedly, I think prior to that, like any person maybe who's in his 40s, I wasn't connected.
Speaker 2:I wasn't connected to Billie Eilish in the same way that that maybe someone in their teens that were so I didn't have, I didn't have a lot to inform me about her or Phineas or any of it and I watched that and I'm like this is so endearing and so cool to me to watch that they made music where she's sitting on her bed and he's sitting there next to her with a laptop and maybe a guitar and they're just working this out and she had just that natural voice, a really great voice that works for what she wanted to do, and they figured it out together and made something following their intuition.
Speaker 1:Yeah you know, don't overthink it, right, like do what comes natural yeah, it didn't sound like from anything.
Speaker 2:It's just one of those things when you hear it and see it and of course she has insecurities and she was going through all the things. I mean, she's a teenager, yeah, you know, in the midst of all that, and she's still trying to just learn about boys and all of those kind of things, but also making art, that ends up being really incredible in in influencing quite a, quite a lot of people, and I'm sure that that pressure, once you do that and you do become successful, by, by what people tend to believe that that generic definition is, which is monetary success or a lot of fan base yeah, a lavish lifestyle, a lot of followers, you know.
Speaker 1:Then it becomes even streams harder.
Speaker 2:Yeah, uh, to achieve that again. And so the pressure for those artists they're like okay, I already peaked. You know, I won six Grammys for this album. Um what, I think? I don't even know if she was 21 yet. I don't. I think she had just gotten a car, I think, and I might be, you know, doing a terrible job of recapturing that. But 17, 18 years old, wins six Grammys for her first album, first full album.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a lot of pressure to go and then like, oh yeah, I'm going to do it. I'm doing a track for James Bond movie. I'm like the anxiety that I feel now for her having to go and do that again and again and still get out there and be relevant and try and go. Okay, I know that my audience, because this is truth Longevity in that world.
Speaker 2:Once you have done it, you know your audience change, they grow up, yeah they grow up, yeah so when you're 15, 16, writing this record with your brother, and you blow up and you become enormous, or your Nirvana, and you become a generational, like a paradigm shift in the culture. Right, then you go. Okay, what now? And for them, like in utero, that was a big F you yeah, everything yeah, no question.
Speaker 2:They're like yeah, even from the producer all the way down to every song that they're putting on there, they're like, yeah, we didn't want any part of what Nevermind became. We liked the songs, but we didn't want any of that. We did not want to deal with that anymore. At least, that's how it came For Billie Eilish. It's like I love my fans, but they're also going to have to grow up with me. Yeah, and I'm going to keep changing and evolving and becoming different and having different experiences, and I'm going to get older. Yeah, and at some certain point, yeah, you're going to lose fans because they're going to find something else. Maybe that one time they had green dyed hair and now they're into punk, and then maybe they got into hardcore metal, or maybe they got into John Mayer, who?
Speaker 1:knows yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, but their tastes are going to change quickly. So if you're chasing that and you've already become successful, that's also another pitfall, even for people who have made it by definition.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, and even if you haven't, I think it's still easy to fall into. We can put ourselves in boxes sometimes of like this is the thing I'm trying to do. Um, you know, a song that we recently wrote falls into that bucket for me of you know, we we wrote this song that'll, you know, be on our next album. Of you know, we we wrote this song that'll, you know, be on our next album, and as I'm like recording it, the vocals and everything, I'm going, man, this is uh, this is different for me and it made me really uncomfortable because in my mind, I'm thinking of myself as one thing and then I'm hearing myself back as something that fits outside of my own perception of my artistry and going, okay, I don't know what to do with this Cause, this doesn't feel like me.
Speaker 2:You're very emo, by the way, and I'm not going to take you off this tangent because it's super important. But I have tried for years to get you to put the makeup on and the whole nine, and you just haven't succumbed to it yet, even though the bands and people that you love certainly lean into that. And jokingly I've said, bro, just just put the mascara on, you'll feel it, you'll feel the character.
Speaker 1:So maybe, maybe that's to come.
Speaker 2:Maybe that's what it was, your inner emo. You just haven't fully accepted that. Uh, as your, as yourself.
Speaker 1:Well, it's funny, though, because I don't think that the song we're talking about is emo at all Just made me think of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you know, the point there being is it it, can it can be easy to? Is it, can it can be easy to after you've you've been working on something for a while that when it comes time to evolve, that you can really second guess yourself. You know, I know, you know local bands who seem to do this more than anyone, but you know, there are big bands, some of which who seem to evolve all the time and they're really pushing for that, even at the cost of sometimes really challenging their fan base, oh yeah. And then you have other artists where you're like, man, this is like the seventh iteration of the first record, you know, and you, you, you know, when you turn it on, you're going to get exactly what you heard the first time.
Speaker 2:When you hear acdc, yeah, you're like I can't wait because I know that I'm going to get what I expect to get and and that's that they got a great formula for rock and roll and they do it, and they do it unapologetically. But there's a certain part of me as a listener that's like I know what I'm going to get from an acd record, acdc record, with a radiohead record. I, I don't, yeah. And there's a part equally as exciting about that because I'm like, oh, I don't know and you know what. Certain records I'm gonna go yeah, I didn't like it, I just couldn't connect with it. Other records I'm gonna go that yeah, I didn't like it, I just couldn't connect with it. Other records I'm going to go. That was absolutely genius and that's the brilliant brilliance of that, you know no two ways are wrong.
Speaker 1:No, they're not. I think my, my only bit of like cautionary advice is if you're doing the same thing over and over again because that's what you love, and over again because that's what you love, you know, uh, by all means, continue doing it. But if you ever find yourself holding yourself back against something new because it challenges your own perception of who you are as an artist, that might mean you've locked yourself in a bit of a box, and so I think there's validity to both. Especially, you know, if you're ACDC and you invented your brand of rock and roll, ride that shit to the bank, you know, um, for those of us who aren't as lucky, you know, like, I think, uh, constantly pursuing, challenging yourself and expanding that view that you have of yourself can be really, really healthy. And I think probably the last thing that I really have to say on this topic is you said something else a minute ago that got me to think about my definition of making it, and that was having people to work with that really inspire you, because that, through a lot of my time with music, has been the missing piece, and our last episode we talked all about collaboration and what that means to us, so I won't rehash that whole thing, but suffice it to say whereas I'm sure not everyone has the same definition, advice it to say, whereas I'm sure not everyone has the same definition.
Speaker 1:For me, so much of making it is having other people that I can make music with, perform with um, write with, collaborate with that, like that. Just that alone gives me so much energy. But then being able to especially write together, it's great to come up with a song idea to write a song to, to do it all yourself. I've done it, um, I always found it. It left me wanting a little bit, you know. And there's just something about having other people that you really trust, that you have a great relationship with, that you can hand an idea off to and then see it become something else. And that's always the most beautiful part of it to me, because you're going to have one idea of what you think it is and then they're going to have a completely different interpretation. It might be similar, but it's always going to be different because you're just not the same people with the same background, the same taste, and then it becomes something that much more unique and that much more interesting.
Speaker 1:And watching that metamorphosis that happens when you work with other people, like the fact that I have that now, at this stage of my life, with the, with the people who I get to work with, namely you and Michael, I'm I'm never left, um, feeling that way anymore. I'm never left going like, ah man, like this is cool, but it's just me, you know, like I wish I had someone else's uh, you know magic on this and being able to send things back and forth, like you're talking about, and get the perspective and really challenged to see how it can get better. Man, I love that so much and if I didn't have that, I do think I wouldn't feel like I've quote unquote made it, you know, like that's been such a big piece for me and that's, I think, most of the bands that I loved growing up. Um, like, I'll, I'll name Avenged Sevenfold as a band that was really, really influential to me and I would see them and they're very vocal about this.
Speaker 1:You know they're a Southern California band. They all grew up together, they all went to school together, they all got in fights together, they're all best friends, you know, and they get to go around the world and make music and and do all of this as a group of people who really love and care about each other. And, uh, so to me I think that was part of my early definition of what making it meant is like being able to hang out with people that you love and respect and admire and do it together. You know, I, I, I prefer team sports over solo sports, you know, I guess is a way to put it when they, when they break your heart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, comes full circle, yeah full circle, but that's been a key piece for me. You know, if I didn't have you and Michael, I think I'd still be searching for that feeling of contentment with what we do, and I don't know where that comes from or why that is, but that's a big one. And so I guess a shout out to the previous episode, you know, find your collaborator, if that's, if that resonates with you. Find people you can work with. Find people who can challenge you and, um, you know, even if it's, you know, having to teach each other how to play instruments and get better.
Speaker 1:You know, I mean, that was, that was me early on when I met Michael. I mean, hell, at that point, as our drummer, he was a better guitar player than me by a long shot and I was just happy to be there because, honestly, I didn't belong. But having him to challenge me and teach me stuff, and eventually I fortunately was able to surpass him on my own instrument, but that was huge for me. You know, eventually I fortunately was able to surpass him on my own instrument, but that was huge for me, you know, cause I got to be in the room with those guys and just absorb the things that they did really well that I wanted to get better at.
Speaker 2:I think, the last for me. That thought you just made me think about a perfect sort of bow tie to this. And for anyone out there who's in or on the precipice of trying to figure out what making it is, go get in a room with the people that you love who also like to create art or play music of any kind, plug in your instrument and make great fucking noise. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that, yeah, that's it. Do what excites you, even if it is a wall of noise yeah, it doesn't matter. And it doesn't matter if someone else, would you know, say that they think it's cool, it doesn't matter, it really doesn't. And there's so many artists out there who are phenomenally successful that I don't get. So it just goes to show you that the people don't know and people don't always get it right away. Follow your intuition, because if you're an artist, you're hearing or feeling something that matters you really are and it might not show its full face immediately when you start and you'll probably make a lot of shitty things before you make something that's great. But you got to trust that what you're pursuing is worthwhile and will result in something that will resonate with someone you know.
Speaker 2:Even if it's only the people in the room. Yeah, that's okay.
Speaker 1:Even if it's just you. Yeah, so yeah, Believe in that like trust in yourself and just make great shit by your own definition. Um, man, hopefully that inspired somebody, Cause like I want to go right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm inspired. Let's go make some noise. I love it. That's a perfect end to that, I think that's a great place to to cut it.
Speaker 1:You know, I agree, I agree, Well, hey, thank you all for listening. Uh, if you made it to the end, thank you even more. If you didn't. Uh, you're not hearing this anyway, but we thank you as well.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Um, we want to hear from you. So if you have thoughts on the show, you have questions for us, um, you know, or are someone who would like to be on the show? Please reach out. You can find us at the sonic alchemy dot com and we are elsewhere in the social media world. So please reach out. Let us know what you think about the show, and we can't wait for you to hear our next episode. We're shooting another one today and it'll be out shortly. So with that we're going to sign off. Have an excellent day and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 2:Go make noise, lots of noise.